The Pikeman's defense.

[AkwaticDudeCity]

Thanks Neon for running the tests.
So, if i understand it correctly, the program makes no difference between cavalry, artillery or infantry. No matter who or what attacks a pikeman, as long as it has a movementrate of 2, the pikeman will have a bonus, right?
Does this also mean you can create units with a bonus vs. say... 3-move-units?

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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

[Sieve Too]

Seeker, are you sure about "horse" units having 2 move, 1 hitpoint and 2 firepower? There are no standard CivII units that fall in this category. Perhaps you mean an attack strength of 2, not firepower.

I tested the Pikemen once last year and found out the same thing as mindseye. The bonus only works if the attacker has 1 hitpoint. Therefore Pikemen are of little value against Dragoons, Cavalry or Howitzers (especially Howizters!). Unfortunately, I never tested any other variables, like whether the Pikeman must also have 1 hp, or if fp matters at all.

[The Mad Monk]

I would like to propose an experiment: raise the pikemens'defense to six, and drop the howitzers' attack to nine; give them both four hp and four firepower. If the bonus works, the results should be around 50%

As a TOT player, I can tell you that there are tons of units in both the SF and Fantasy games that have this bonus, at stages in each game where a 'one hp' rule would render it useless...

[Seeker]

A "horse" in civ2:

2 moves, 2 firepower, and 1 hitpoint. Anything else is not a 'horse'. Try making the tank attack strength 4 and testing it out. Give the piker the same hp and fp as the tank. The piker will still have defense 2 and so will lose every time.

This was discovered in world war scenarios when people tried to make anti tank guns, they don't get the times 2 bonus unless the "tank" had 2 fp and 1 hp.

[Neon Deon]

Darn!
Well i have to test everything over again cuase its all skewed. But, this u can take to the bank. The pikeman bonus is not 2 times its 50% Ie: he is a three not a four when it comes to units that move 2.
The pikeman wins 50 % of the time vs chariot and only 20% vs elephant! I tested em each in 100 battles, Pike won 52 out of 100 against the chariot and won 20 out of 100 vs the elephant.

[Neon Deon]

Two Hit Points.

The pikeman defense does not work against units with more than one hp.
I Adjusted both the pikeman and the chariot to 2 hps. The pikeman won 2 out of 100 or 2%. Just to make sure I tested it with 3 hps each also. The pikeman won 0 out of 100.
I guess you could still make anti tank units.
just keep the hps at one and adjust the attack strengths more.
I am not sure about TOT tho have to get the program to test that one.
I also got an Email from the Pres. of the Pikemans union stating how he didnt apprecitate me using his members like they were a bunch of GM crash test dummies.

[Scouse Gits]

Would someone please clarify how Hit Points work?
I am playing a Samurai scenario with ninja units which (if I remember correctly) are 2 attack 0 defense and 8! HP - although they normally go quietly when attacked by any normal unit they have occasionally knocked a Samurai 3/2 unit down to a sliver of red, when the Samurai was the attacker.


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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

[DaveV]

SG1 - as I understand it, even a zero defense unit has a small chance of winning. An 8HP unit would have 80 (small) chances to win, so it could end up surviving. I've seen other people report losing to barb kings, who only have 1 HP.

[Seeker]

Sorry. just checked rules, it's 1 hp and 1 fp (I think).

This means pikemen shouldn't get a bonus vs dragoons.

Attack: The chance to make a successfull attack on a unit, which inflicts damage to the opponents hp equal to the attackers fp, thus a warrior attacking a cannon needs to win the equivalent of two successful battles.

Somewhere in the manual I believe it says that 1 hp is actually 10 hp, or something like that. There are a few times when you need to know what these represent, for instance shore bombardment both attacker and defender are considered 1 hp, 1 fp.

[The Mad Monk]

...and thus the pikemen become even less useless to me. I didn't think that possible.

Sigh.

[Neon Deon]

Wow! Again! This stuff is starting to sound like vodoo! Soooo, if MR. Pikeman has 2 hps and 2fps his D bonus works?? Oh boy this game is Vodoo! Now, all i need are some live chickens Here chicky, chicky chicky Okay Pablo line up the crash dummies.

[Xin Yu]

Ooops, I might be wrong. Moscow was on a river, that contribute to the defense of the Vet Red Guards. However they are not fortified.

[Neon Deon]

Xin,
I Think something might be off on your observation.
..........Pikeman on Steroids...............
VS
...........Chariots of Death................

Pikeman defending.

Both units at 7/5/2 hps 2 fp 2
7 attack vs. 5 defense.
Pikmen won 15 out of 100 battles (15%)

Repeated test with pikeman fortified.
7 attack vs. 7.5 defense if bonus doesnt work.

Pikemen won 59 out of 100 (59%)

Bonus only works on units with 1 hp.
Gotta go some guys with really long spikes are at the door.

[adaMada]

Very interesting forum.

Keep up the good work…

[geofelt]

This is my understanding of how this works:
Firepower applies only to offense, it is a measure of how much damage a successful battle round will cause to the loser.
Hitpoints apply only to defense, it(times 10) is a measure of how much damage a unit can take in a losing battle.
In a battle, the winner gets no damage, and the loser loses hit points equivalent to the winner's firepower. The odds of winning a battle round is determined by the ratio of the attacker's offense strength vs the defender's defense strength. You can tell how many hit points a victor has left by the color bar. green=67-100%, yellow=34-36%,red=less than 33%.
Any unit with a defense of 0(diplomat, barb king, cruise missle) must almost always lose. I have bested a barb king on a hill with a warrior in the red and 1/3 movement left. On one rare occasion, a barb leader on a mountain did win, so I suppose there may be some rounding in the calculations.