Self-handicaps

[CrispyCritter]

This question is sparked by the thread about whether you expect to win every time. Certainly if you've played enough (too much?) you expect to win unless you've handicapped yourself somehow (in single player mode).

The OCC is a very nice example of a handicap set. My question is what other handicap sets do people use to make interesting single player games?

My current BloodLust handicap set is
One original settler is a scout only.
Not allowed to build any wonders.
No Fundamentalism.
I play small map, 7 civs, diety, barb hordes, MGE.

I can win almost all games like this, but most are challenging. I'm currently trying to add to the above set to come up with a Spaceship goal set but so far my handicaps have been too difficult for me (currently above plus
Can't conquer any wonders
Max number of cities is 20
And obviously allowed to build the single wonder of the Apollo program.)

So what sort of handicaps do people use?

Crispy Critter

[Hawkman]

Delete all goody huts, they give the human too much of an advantage. Play at highest level, with barbarians going at full tilt.

[CrispyCritter]

As far as Ming's suggestion of no offensive attacks, I forgot to mention as another handicap that I play my reputation has to be spotless. Do you mean more than this?

No diplo/spy sounds like it has some possibilities. That sounds awfully harsh though, in that they're my main defense against barbarians, and are needed in the midgame to take care of city walls. It distorts the game too much not to be able to knock down city walls. But a handicap of no bribing AI's (non-barbs) sounds playable and I'll add it to my list.

As far as goody huts go, I never investigate them until late early game (eg, after both Monarchy and Philosophy) in any case. I don't view them as being terribly important in my style of play.

Crispy Critter

[Ming]

CrispyCritter... when I said no offensive attacks... I meant just that. You are never allowed to attack anything. Obviously it means you must get to AC first to win
After beating the game like that, then add the no diplo/spy rule... and you know what, it still isn't much of a challange

[CrispyCritter]

Ming,
Thanks. For some reason I had grouped in my mind the "no wonders" with the "no attack", but you didn't mean both at once (I assume?). I would think it would be tough to do both; I seem to need 15-20 cities to have a chance at a 1-wonder spaceship, and that makes me enough of a target for the AI's so even if I could find
15 cities before the AI's got there I wouldn't survive without counter-attacking.

My OCC games tend to be close to no-attack games, and are also close to no diplo/spy. (I play MGE and the AI's are hostile enough so I try to have as little contact with them as possible.) I'll try it out, but I want to figure out a reasonable 1-wonder AC game first. Thanks!

Crispy Critter

[Ming]

OCC... No wonders... No offensive attacks...
No diplos/spies...

Thank god for MP, because playing against the AI is no longer challanging or fun. Bring on an opponent that thinks, and then you have an interesting game again

[Scouse Gits]

An interesting handicap, in a large world conquest game, is to set science to zero after researching a target tech.

For instance, say after Invention - you receive no other techs except by conquest. Stealing is NOT allowed and neither are caravans. (except food caravans for wonder building)
--------
SG (2)

[rah]

I would think that if you have to wait for the AI to have all the techs for the spaceship before you can get them through conquest, they will launch and land before you everytime. This is based on their ability to steal the last tech from you and launch a fast ship on the next turn.
Unless you can arrange to take out multiple capitals each turn, I doubt you would be successful.

But please feel free to give it a try and report back your humiliation.
Of course we all thought occ would be impossible originally.

RAH

Has anyone completed and won an occ challenge with only building one wonder yet?

[Tom DeMille]

Rah, I think I'll try a wonderless OCC game this week. There's a couple of comparison games from Paul's site I haven't tried yet.

What would be the best choice for single wonder? Copernicus or Appollo. Seriously though, if you built Copernicus you'd get up the tech tree all the faster. Gift the AIs all your techs and hope one of them builds Appollo for you.

Maybe the true test would be no wonders at all. Well, I think I'll build Appollo this time.

[Campo]

quote: Originally posted by Ming on 02-20-2000 02:46 PM ...it still isn't much of a challange

As someone who can almost always beat King level but still hasn't won at Emperor, I'd sure like to watch one of you guys play. I feel like I understand all the important principles. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. I wish I could stand over someone's shoulder and watch every move, to pinpoint the key factors.

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by Campo on 02-21-2000 03:54 PM I wish I could stand over someone's shoulder and watch every move, to pinpoint the key factors.

You can come close to doing this by persuading someone to send you some save games. There have been several comparison game challenges where people saved every 20 turns. You could follow a player's progress by loading his save games in succession. If you'd like an interval more frequent than 20 turns, start a new comparison game - here's a thread for reference: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000373.html

[Black Bart]

I'd like to check that out. I can beat Emporer and probably beat Diety. But I seriously doubt I could do those one city challenges. Diety is still quite a challenge. But it is easy now, that I got rid of some of my bad habits (but I still like to build up before I annihilate the AI)

[geofelt]

Try to conquer the world without suffering any casualties.
I also tried to conquer the world without capturing any cities before I discovered howitzers. It's hard not to retaliate when sneak attacked.
See how long it takes to send a diplomat around the world on a 20x250 map. It takes longer than you might think.
try to build all the wonders.

[CrispyCritter]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-21-2000 09:31 AM An interesting handicap, in a large world conquest game, is to set science to zero after researching a target tech. For instance, say after Invention - you receive no other techs except by conquest. Stealing is NOT allowed and neither are caravans. (except food caravans for wonder building) -------- SG (2)

Nice idea! I assume you're also not allowed to trade for techs? Do you cut off science as soon as you build Invention, or do you allow building other techs that don't depend on Invention (eg, you could make Invention as late as the 41st tech you build).

This suggest variants like
"You're allowed to build 20 (or 30 or whatever) techs throughout the game."
The rest have to be gotten through the AIs, either just conquest (for a hard game) or any source.

For a conquest game, you'd probably get most techs early, but save some for later? Which advances do you want to get first?

A spaceship game would be interesting; you probably need some in the beginning to get going, but you need to save most for the end to quickly develop a science lead. Food for thought, thanks!

Crispy Critter

[CrispyCritter]

quote: Originally posted by geofelt on 02-21-2000 10:39 PM Try to conquer the world without suffering any casualties. I also tried to conquer the world without capturing any cities before I discovered howitzers. It's hard not to retaliate when sneak attacked.

Hmmm... I suspect you're not playing MGE. You can establish peace one turn and have them sneak attack a diplomat the next turn! There's no way to explore the world without casualties. And you learn to accept being sneak attacked. In my current game, I've been sneak attacked 4 times in the past 20 turns by the same AI. I re-establish peace as soon as I can and they attack one or two turns later.

The "not conquering cities before howitzers" sounds interesting. Probably depends a lot on the map size you play. Small map, 7 civs doesn't leave a lot of room... But if you can build wonders, 4-5 cities may be enough.