Medium Map landing: 935 AD (Deity,MGE)

[samson]

I just finished this one, using the old "bare bones" approach.

==============================
AC: 768

Monarchy: --
Republic: -3050
Democracy: -1050

Copernicus -1100
Colossus: -900
Newton: -425
Apollo: 600

Automobile: 80
Computers: 320
Space Flight: 560
==============================

Skipped Monarchy and went right for Republic. Got 4 nomads (one polar) and 2 advanced tribes. Tried the "bait city" gambit. Built four helper cities around Washington and left them all undefended. In 850BC Boston (advance tribe at 56,12) was taken by barbarians. This was the farthest 'bait' and the road to had to be built over many hills, but eventually with rail and Superhighways it provided trade routes worth 30+ arrows.

By 400BC the SSC had all science wonders and improvements and was providing 2 turns/tech with a population of 7. I had 8 other cities, all size 3 or 2. Three of these were on the Russian/Egyptian coast, one was in the German heartland, and the last (polar-nomad founded) was way south of the Carthaginians. I kept a trireme running caravans between the coastal cities and the home continent up until it could be replaced by a transport. This meant that its home city, Chicago, was in and out of disorder every other turn under Democracy.

By 100 AD I had Superhighways in the size12 SSC and was getting 1 turn advances. I was able to maintain this rate with the help of small-bonus caravans until the Research Lab came on-line in the size16 SSC. Then two more 1 turn techs until Flight shut down the Colossus. After that I got a couple more 1 turn advances with SSC freights delivered abroad. Unfortunately, this replaced the high-paying Barb Boston trade routes. So I retook Boston with a Diplo and got another helper city.

Two turn techs slowed the endgame, but my production capacity was extremely low and I needed the time to build freights. In the end I just barely put a minimum ship together by 720 AD and launched without Fusion Power. FP was 2 techs away (behind a junker) and it was faster to launch without waiting for it. So I sold off science improvements, most of my units, and a temple or two. The 48 turn post-launch period was filled with AI skirmishes and one prolonged war. By the time the ship arrived on AC, half of Carthage was under American rule.

Note to Ribannah:
I only had one ally in this game, the Mongols, and they never gifted any gold until very late in the game when they offered me 300 to war on the Germans. I got one other 100 gold gift a few turns later. That was it. So stop whining about MGE.

[solo]

samson,

Well done! Copernicus (and science) first always seems to do best. If I had not gone for Hanging Gardens in 1900 (and MC right after!), I think I could have built Copernicus earlier than you did, but with earlier Republic, you probably gained ground early in techs. This game sort of confirms my suspicions that there just isn't enough time to grow or develop any cities except the SSC, even on a medium map, so my "overbuilding" days are over, especially after the success of my 336 game, where all helpers stopped at one temple and size 3 each. Are you convinced now, as I am, that small map is superior for earliest landings?

As for the MGE handicap, I have a few comments, as I used to play MGE all of the time before hearing of better AI diplomacy and tribute in 2.24. In MGE, much less tribute is available, but this is because the AI are more likely to declare war than pay up. In early landing games, tribute is not much of a factor, since we are in Republic so fast, not much, if any can be collected first. The main advantage of 2.24 seems to be the ease with which any or all of the AI can be kept peaceful, which can be useful for trading techs that they acquire. Oddly enough, alliances seem more likely in MGE, as I can usually get more than the single one that only seems available in 2.24 games, once I am ranked supreme. However, MGE alliances will be cancelled sooner if gifts are solicited too often, but MGE allies can be generous and good mannered (e.g., civilized perfectionists) ones can stick with you all game. For me, it's the less aggressive and more predictable behavior of the AI in 2.24 that gives that version its advantage in early landing games, and not so much the slight economic benefit.

solo

[samson]

Yes, small map is better for early landing. I've always said so. But I still think a pre-500 landing is possible on a medium map, too. It's just going to be harder to find the 'perfect' start.

I had the advantage in this game of having read your and Ribannah's logs. It gave me a notion of the geography and what to expect. But this wasn't an easy game. I was so strapped for cash that my first Wonder was delayed. Then the caravans started rolling in and I built Colossus right after Cope's. Usually I go for University first, but with caravans instead of cash available Colossus was quicker.

The AI was almost useless for techs in this game. After getting Mysticism, Iron Working and the Wheel from the Mongols I got nothing else. I was hoping someone would research Feudalism or Seafaring for me, but no. I eventually had to take Pottery, Monarchy, Horseriding, and Warrior Code - junk techs all. Still, not having to carry M, H, and WC until I was ready for Computers probably saved 2500 beakers.

The AI were feisty all game. The Mongols were rarely more than Cordial and stingy as heck. The Russians were worse - a constant threat to my coastal cities - and needed appeasement. The Babs, Egyptians, and Germans all "forgot" about our peace treaties in the end game and required checking every turn. The Carthaginians couldn't be reasoned with, except by taking their cities. Which started me thinking. In early landing you rarely get more than one ally. So, except for the Purples and the Ally, why not spend a little time conquering? 3 or 4 AI cities taken by NON units early in the game would be pretty helpful, ala your treatment of the Zulus. Might try a limited war strategy next time.

The 'bait city' ploy worked pretty good. But it didn't pay as well as an AI city and having Barbs on a rail line to my weakly defended SSC made me a little nervous. Also when I started sending out SSC freights those Barb City routes got replaced. Still, it did the job. I hated to see those techs drop to 2 turns at the end. But I needed to start saving caravans for the SS and couldn't send them out for delivery. I probably could have managed the trade better and not been in such a pinch at the end.

Skipping Fusion Power cost me 12 years in SS flight time. But allowed me to launch 2 turns sooner (40 years). A good trade-off. Although it made for a long wait for landing. No AI civ ever seriously threatened to launch a ship.

[solo]

Yeah, the Russians needed tech gifts very often to stay nice and they still were bugging me while trying to build that ill-fated railroad from San Francisco.

Taking AI cities may become a very good way to go, as it is so easy early in the game. Wait until they are just size two, and you can usually cream their warrior, or just walk in if there is no flag flying yet. Bribery is even cheap for a well-placed size one city. I think it was 24 gold for that Zulu city, and then I got 17 or so back in plunder, but they got even a bit by including Polythesim. Later, when going to Democracy, tribute was very good, too, maybe because of my earlier willingness to go on the offense.

City sites like what you are used to on small maps may be needed for a chance of pre-500 on medium, but on random maps, 1 gold with 3 other specials is infrequent and two gold close enough together is very rare. You may have your best shot with the map I used in the 776 game. Ribannah is trying that one now. It also starts you off with quite a few free techs.

While looking for another small map start I discovered that you can get more than 4 free techs on a small map start, something I didn't think could happen. One with useless terrain that I generated had 8 free techs at the start, which is the maximum! A small map start with extra free techs, PLUS a good SSC site could be the thing we need next! I'll keep looking.

[samson]

8 free techs isn't the maximum. I've had 9. Only once, but I counted them carefully and there were really 9 of them. I can't remember whether this was on a random start or during my testing of research costs. I might still have the savefile around somewhere. I think I had Monarchy, Trade and Map Making plus all their prerequisites, maybe Mysticism, too.

[solo]

Must be some magic in that computer of yours, because SG did thousands of tests, and the most ever seen was 8, if I remember correctly.

With 9 (another new record!), you were probably left on one tiny rock in the middle of the ocean!

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by samson
8 free techs isn't the maximum. I've had 9. Only once, but I counted them carefully and there were really 9 of them. I can't remember whether this was on a random start or during my testing of research costs. I might still have the savefile around somewhere. I think I had Monarchy, Trade and Map Making plus all their prerequisites, maybe Mysticism, too.

samson - many things are possible in Civ 2! For instance Map Making appears about once in 1500 starts!

The most techs we ever recorded at the beginning were as follows:
Small World 6 Techs
Medium and Large World 8 Techs.
If you have a 4000BC save with 9 - I would love to see it.
--------------
SG(2)

[solo]

SG,

I got 8 techs on a small map and will attach it here, as you would probably like to see it and add it to your collection. Only this one time, and although I asked for 7 civs, only 5 appeared in the game. Something weird happened, but it WAS a random start on a small map.

solo

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks solo - that game must be a 1 in 10,000 chance! It proves the fairly random nature of starting techs. The game is not impossible - but you would never achieve a record landing with that terrain. It's better than being stuck on the North Pole with only Bronze Working to start you off!

-------------

SG(2)

[solo]

The only thing unusual that might explain 8 techs was that my GAME.TXT was set up for Deity +5 at the time this start was generated. Could be a side effect of this.

Though devoid of good trade specials, the starting location is not awful, so I am trying a game anyways, with Washington and NY founded early at 66,10 and 70,8 where they share a fish and pheasant. Washington has an extra fish and NY has an extra fish and extra pheasant, and both grew rapidly with Monarchy as a starting tech. So far only one hut, giving an advanced tribe at 70,16, which has 1 whale and some grassland and forests. With a whale as the best trade special, science has not been spectacular so far, but I did find a potential SSC at 67,21, two squares northeast of Kyoto. It has a wine and 2 whales and there may be silk hidden in the grass at the fourth corner. A road to Kyoto was quick work, and a rail later will really boost trade, but even with so many techs as a head start, this game has no chance of being a record setter, due to the late start on a mediocre SSC site.

With Alphabet, Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Code of Laws, Masonry, Monarchy, Mysticism, and Pottery as starting techs, it surprised me that there were 4 more to choose from when I made my first trade with the Japanese, who had Horseback Riding, Iron Working, Warrior Code and Wheel to pick from! This game has great potential for tech tree maneuvering, but the lack of trade specials, huts and tribute so far hurts.

[samson]

SG - If I can find that 9 tech start, I'll post it. I had read your work on starting techs and knew that it was unusual, so I think I still have it ... somewhere.

Solo - In my experience when the human player gets lots of starting techs, so do the the AI players. So I don't find it surprising that the Greens had so many.

[Ribannah]

Samson, for reasons of comparison, did you do any caravan rehoming like you did in other games? I have not done so since I felt it would make my game impure.

[samson]

Ribannah,

The only game in which I have rehomed caravans was the 76AD game which I just posted about. This landing, on Solo's medium map in 768AD, was "pure" and can be compared to yours and Solo's.

As I once remarked to Solo, your Civ brings to mind a huge luxury JumboJet touching down for a smooth-as-silk landing. Mine is a flying gascan, its wings held on with chewing gum, that crashes just after crossing the finish line. But it's not how much you've got when you get there, only when you get there.

Play on.