Wonders: Integral errors

[Bereta_Eder]

Anyone ever thought that building or not building Mike's Chapel makes for two HUGELY different games?

If you built it no problem things just move along. If you don't you're in for a rough ride. You'll have to increase luxury which will slow your progress signifanctly, you will slow down changing to more democratic and productive governments and in general you'll increase the difficulty factor of civ by 5 at least.

I think this is a very big error in the core of civ gameplay. The happiness administration in civ is implemented very sloppy. It's like you MUST have a hapiness wonder (in Emperor or Deity) on order not to prevail but merely to exist.

[rah]

While it does make a difference, it is not insurmountable.
I have competed quite well in MP games without any of the happiness wonders.
And in SP games it really doesn't matter since the AI sucks and is very predictable, which translates to easily beatable.

A game based on high yielding trades routes can make up the difference in representative forms of governments. (markus is very proficient at this strat )

Or communism can drastically reduce the need for happiness wonders while still allowing for scientific growth. Celebrating in high trade cities to get the extra trade arrows like rep/dem can offset your disadvantage.

The only thing is that if you are playing one of these types of stratagies it means one/ or more of your opponents have the happiness wonders and will usually have a leg up in the tech race. You must aggressively harrass these civilizations to force them to divert resources into something other than science.

And Finally, an all out war strat, (Fundy) can be used as a strat of last resort. (if they're going to take me down, someone is coming with me)

So there are many ways to overcome. It depends on the situation. The best MP players are those that can adapt. Sometimes you aren't allowed to follow your favorite strat.

RAH

[Bereta_Eder]

But all these you mentioned (tarde routs etc) are standard procedure whether you have or you don;'t have the wonder.
But in the first case you'll rocket your way to space flight, in the second you'll just keep your civ happy.

Still the difference of outcome is great no matter the strategy.
Plus you really can't go far by fonty except if you are planning on world conquest each and every time.

Also I think Deity and a bad start is a challenge to everybody even if they don;t want to admit it

[rah]

Challanges brings out the best in the better players. Every start can't be great, and if they were, it would get boring.

And I have seen some players very successful without a single trade route. (rare but it does happen if the get a good tech window against an opponent) I.E. vet crusaders before the pikeman, etc.

RAH

[Jay Bee]

To me the crucial happiness wonder is not Mike's, it's the HG. Without it my expansion is severely hampered and that primarily determines the type of strategy to follow. (I like that smiley)

[rah]

Just have enough money to rush buy temples and expansion is no problem.

RAH

[TCO]

Originally posted by rah
Challanges brings out the best in the better players. Every start can't be great, and if they were, it would get boring.

And I have seen some players very successful without a single trade route. (rare but it does happen if the get a good tech window against an opponent) I.E. vet crusaders before the pikeman, etc.

RAH

I'm way to lazy to bother with trade routes. The game is quite easy without them. Who needs trades when you've got Fundy...

[Edward]

paiktis22,

I agree that Michaelangelo's Cathedral is very, very powerful. In fact most of the wonders are worth much more than their shield cost. They unbalance Civ2 IMHO. My games (all single player) are invariably races for early wonders. I need to get up the courage to try a "no wonders" game (which would be a great challenge for me and would drastically change my tech tree).

I also agree with jay Bee that the Hanging Gardens are very powerful. And unlike Michaelangelo's, the AI likes HG. Without the Hanging Gardens, my early civ limps along with cities full of dejected entertainers waiting to become setters to go off and found cities that are even more unhappy than the first. It's loss also makes celebrating your SSC more difficult.

I think DaveV regularly goes for Statue of Liberty instead of Michaelangelo's Chapel to make Communism his post-HG "happiness wonder".

[Bereta_Eder]

Yup. That's my point. And I think that the happiness wonders are so powerful because the happiness issue is so purely implemented.
It is the most critical factor that affects the growth of your civ.

I tried to play at Deity and not build any happiness wonders and my civ ressembled a small village

[East Street Trader]

Have a go at "no wonders" Edward. Or allow yourself just a couple, say Lighthouse and Magellan's. It turns out not so bad as you might think.

It makes it harder if you also play that you've got to destroy cities captured with a wonder in them but don't bother with that at first. Just see the effect of devoting the time you otherwise spend on wonder races to more focused development.

My game has shown signs for quite a while of evolving steadily away from wonder building.

To wean yourself off the contentment wonders in particular try going for early Republic and hone up some methods to avoid stagnation in that form of gov.t. By early I mean around 1AD. Allow yourselg HG at first then try without it.

[rah]

Originally posted by GP


I'm way to lazy to bother with trade routes. The game is quite easy without them. Who needs trades when you've got Fundy...

In SP no problem. In MP you will find your muskets defending against tanks because your opponents will be soooo far ahead technology wise.

paiktis22,
You would be surprised that if you take all those caravans that you used for building wonders and established trade routes, that happiness is not that big of a problem in Republic or Democracy. And you'll have the extra money to rush buy those temples in your newly established cities.

RAH

[Bohlen]

I think the bottom line is...What is your end goal? Happiness is can be achieved multiple ways, but those ways are limited depending on your overall game goal (conquest or AC) and the form of government you are and want to be in.

In other words, if it looks like you won't be able to build Mike's and will have trouble keeping the peace, which in turn stunts your tech growth, go to war and rule under one of the governments best suited for that (Commie, Fundie) and your happiness problem is solved.

You would be surprised that if you take all those caravans that you used for building wonders and established trade routes, that happiness is not that big of a problem in Republic or Democracy. And you'll have the extra money to rush buy those temples in your newly established cities.

Yep. But if you are going for conquest, some of those caravans could be troops. Depends on your overall game plan.

Just some thoughts...

[Hasdrubal]

Re: Wonders: Integral errors

Originally posted by paiktis22
It's like you MUST have a hapiness wonder (in Emperor or Deity) on order not to prevail but merely to exist.

My 'must have' wonder is Bach's. I usually try to play a warmonger style game while staying in democracy and celebrating WLTxD's. Mike's can be easily replaced by cathedrals, but Bach's effect can't.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by rah
You would be surprised that if you take all those caravans that you used for building wonders and established trade routes, that happiness is not that big of a problem in Republic or Democracy. RAH

But we can only have 3 trade routes functioning at the same time. Do you mean keep replacing my existing routes with new commodities like uranium and oil?

I recently started to use the caravans and freights to establish new trade routes again and again. (I usually stoped when all my cities hade the 3 trade routes). I got around 11 trade arrows for each trade route from the new commodities. But I didn't notice anything else that a HUGE boost in techs and money But not much difference in the happiness department.

[Edward]

paiktis22,

Unless your luxuries are 10% or more, your trade routes won't help your happiness. At 10% or more, a large number of routes should help your happiness. As you noted, re-establishing routes will not increase your happiness.

As a wonder-wimp myself (low % of luxuries, high number of happy wonders) I can't comment on exactly how effective routes are in keeping happiness.