Civ Respawn ends in 1500

[Bloody Monk]

When I checked out of here last spring, SG(2) urged me to lurk even if I couldn't play or post. So, when my eyes allowed I have kept up with the Strat and General Forums. Along with noting again how much his passing affected me, I will miss his robust constructive criticisms and marvel at how much he shared with all of us.

There is one continuing question that folk are confused about, that being, "when does civ respawn stop??" I did some testing when this came up last December in a Deity, Raging, MGE SXN game.

Respawn stops as of 1500ad. NOT 1750.

Rather than adding yet another unconfirmed comment I found a save from that game to lead a new thread. Hope this is useful.

I include a save from the beginning of 1500. Attack and raze Rhodes and see for yourself. Hit the space bar a million times to end the turn. Check the Dipolmacy screen, in 1510, and you will see there is no longer an Orange Civ.

Now, if -Jrabbit (please) will check this out we will know about the Mac too. Someone else will have to find a save for Vanilla 242.

Monk

[La Fayette]

Thank you very much, Monk.
Too bad your eyes don't allow more at the moment.
I strongly hope that the moment will be short.

[duke o' york]

It's great that you're still committed to the worship of Civ 2. I reckon it must hurt your eyes to look at the monitor so long, so playing through the pain shows your dedication to the finest game around (still).

I know that this is a theoretical question as it's highly unlikely it would ever happen, but if there were 255 cities before 1500, you captured the last city of a rival civ and built one in your turn, then would the game even bother to stick another settler on the map to just wander for the rest of the game, or would it consider the civ dead?

[-Jrabbit]

Download complete. Emailing to the Mac...

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by duke o' york

I know that this is a theoretical question as it's highly unlikely it would ever happen, but if there were 255 cities before 1500, you captured the last city of a rival civ and built one in your turn, then would the game even bother to stick another settler on the map to just wander for the rest of the game, or would it consider the civ dead?

DoY

Logic suggests a settler would be generated, but who can say without a test.

Personally, I think that many cities makes for a suicide inducing state of boredom, but to each his own. We have all, probably, tried one record type game; but, I'd never do that again. So, if you want to perform a test, have at it. That is the only way to know for sure.

Thanks for the good thoughts. I wish I could "play through the pain" as you say, but for now, just reading the threads is a stretch. However, I must report that playing a game completely in one's head is not the same.

Monk

[Elephant]

I think the key is number of turns, not date, which is different for Deity and normal Emp. I think the 1750 is for large Emp or King.

[Bloody Monk]

I think I think I think

I thought Deity WAS the norm.

Whatever the drop dead date for other levels may be IS determinable by testing. That's why I supplied a save for anyone to check out. The problem (confusion) has come from far too many "I think" posts. No offense intended; and you may well be right. But --I think-- we can only nail this down by posting a save (along with a report about the operation of respawn on the previous turn.) This way it can be verified across our many and varied operating systems, etc.

So, Ellie, do you have any Emp or King saved games whereby this can be checked?? It would be of interest to have this question settled, yes?? Thanks

Anyone with saved games that demonstrate the end of respawn please jump in. I agree that this is a rather minor, hardly ever critical, point; but, it does keep coming up, so let's put this question to bed.

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

Technically, this method only proves "doesn't always" or "doesn't necessarily" respawn. (But I doubt the lazy programmers bothered with delta-percentage for respawn based on year/number of turns, so it's still good knowledge.)

[Bloody Monk]

Does that mean you confirm no respawn in1500 on the Mac??

Monk

[Zenon]

Monk,

thank you for bringing this up. I wanted to do some tests on the restart setting since I played a game where I overlooked the restart option and just couldn´t figure out why and when AI´s would respawn. I can confirm that on deity restarts stop in 1500. They still happen in 1480.

Some other observations I made: there is always respawning until 75 BC (king to deity level). Between 100 BC and the end date respawning is random generated. The probability is influenced by at least 3 factors: more turns played, more AI left and a lower difficulty level result in a lower probability of respawns. In 75 BC the probability of not having a restart is appr. 1 out of 20. On king king level you soon come to an even probability of having no respawn (100 AD, 6 AI) or to a high probability (260 AD, 6 AI) while on deity respawns are much more likely and still occur in 1480 AD with an even probability.

Don´t ask me for an exact formula. After killing some 500 AI civs (they call me the merciless now ), I am far from suggesting how to calculate the overall probability for respawns. But the findings might be interesting anyway.

Respawns occur immediately. The only exception: bribing the last settler of an AI. The respawn is then processed with the next turn. It doesn´t help to destroy several AI in the same turn. There may be several respawns in the same turn and it seems the probabilty of respawns is not changed.

There are more interesting questions. Where do the respawns occur? It is random generated but I am sure there are factors influencing the probability (distance to existing cities, distance to the last city destroyed(?)). Anyone has information on this?

Zenon

[La Fayette]

sorry

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by La Fayette
Zenon used to be an early lander.
He is now a civ killer.
The #1 spy killer salutes you

[Bloody Monk]

Zenon,

Thank you very much for the testing and verification work.

It is interesting to note your finding that a probabilty exists, prior to 1500, Deity, for a respawn to NOT occur.

When I first started playing I thought the "no restart" option was a no brainer. Why allow the weeds to grow back after being sought out and chopped down?? I was focused on conquest or aggressive defense. Then I came here and learned about the virtues of trade and later, Key Civ, and having more trading partners, possiblities, through allowing restarts came to mind. Having the AI kill your Key Civ, with resarts off, is not a happy moment.

So I began to play more games with restarts on; but I never noticed your result that a killed civ/color may not resart in the earlier stages of the game. Good catch!! I wonder what other variables are operative in that probability function??

At least we can hang our hats on the 1500 peg for Deity. Thanks

Monk

[Zenon]

Monk,

thanks for the comment. I wish I had more material for testing, but I couldn´t find early games below deity anymore where I could test the end date.

What I realized during the tests is that the restarts on setting is default. Probably like most of the players I soon switched to no restarts in my early games. Finding some lonely settler on the map after destroying a dozen AI civs can be boring. But the creators of civ 2 obviously put some effort in conceiving rules that would allow a conquest depending on difficulty level and number of turns played. They didn´t forsee that players would generally switch to no restarts.

May be they restart setting is more interesting than we generally thought. If there are rules unknown there is also a challenge.

La Fayette, I noticed your 604 landing in GOTM 31. You certainly belong to the early landers yourself

Zenon

[duke o' york]

To make it clear then, you can only have a restart on the same or next turn after a civ has been destroyed. Therefore, if the civ dies and the parameters are not right for a restart, or if the random factor you mention "misses", then that colour civ can never rejoin the game.
Is it possible for the random factor to "hit", but because there is not enough space to restart the civ, then there is no rebirth, but a new settler will appear when the other conditions, independent of randomness, apply?
This would also suggest that a civ split, where a single civ (top of the powergraph) splits into two factions, one belonging to the original owner of the cities and the other to a previously extinct civ, cannot take place before 1500.