Early Landing Comparison Game #2

[solo]

Okay, here is the start for the second game, to give those anxious to play a head start. I'll post the deadline for this game on Sunday, when I get a better idea of how much time all players need to complete their games.

I was thinking over the requirement for having a detailed log, and can not think of a good reason for enforcing this requirement, so have decided that as a minimum, each player should complete a summary of their game, which will include game dates for the following events:

Governments
Monarchy
Republic
Democracy
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
ST
Colossus
Copernicus
Isaac's
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's
SETI
Apollo

SSC stats
size 8
size 12
size 21
max. size

Techs
Trade
Invention
Railroad
Automobile
Nuclear Power
Computers
Flight
Space Flight

AC arrival

The table following each game will contain these stats. Of course, you may not build all wonders listed, or use all governments, so just keep track of dates relevant to your own game. More detailed logs and/or written accounts of games will be at the players' discretion. Add as little or as much as you want to the required summary.

In this game you will be playing as the Zulus. The same options and rules will be in effect as in the last game. You will find a suitable SSC site a bit to the west of the starting position.

Best of luck to all players and enjoy your games!

[solo]

Ooops! I guess you'd all like the start, too!

[Scouse Gits]

solo - Thanks for setting up another game.

------------------------

SG(2)

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks, Solo.

Here we go again

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

I haven't downloaded it yet (bit of a problem with RL), but include me in!

RJM at Sleepers

[SCG]

well, i was hoping to get something done on this game today, instead i spent the day playing with what seems to have become the SCG switch (looks like a Corollary to the copper/dye bug), and finding that even with reinstalls, my commodities are different depending on the version i am using and possibly the OS as well. I deleted my entire Civ2 directory (copying the saves that i wanted first) and then reinstalled Civ2 2.42 on 2 different computers. they produce different commodity lists with the same save file in the case of the tested cities.

Anyway. moving ahead with the (i think) clean install of version 2.42 and throwing my hat in the ring on an ME machine. Hopefully I'll shave several hundred years off of last game's landing

[Grigor]

solo, Thanks for the second game. Unfortunately, I get the "file not a saved game" dialog box - is this in 2.42?

[solo]

Grigor,

Yes, it was saved using 2.42. What version of civ II are you using?

All,

For this game, I'll be setting a deadline of Sunday, April 6, which is 3 weeks from today.

[Grigor]

It's fine now. I must have done something stupid.

[Scouse Gits]

solo ... why did you include Nuclear Power in the list of significant techs? Just wondering!

------------------------

SG(2)

[Elephant]

I notice the continent is #1 again; are you choosing these to discourage black-clicking? I like to use HutFinder to see where the special sites are, but this frustrates checking whether there is an SSC site nearby. How do you do it - wander around or MapEditor?

In terms of tech dates, I think listing the discovery date of Mon/Rep/Dem would help compare our strategies, as I am curious how many others are trying for "instant revolutions" versus putting off switching. Personally, I like discovering Republic early for tech gifting the other civs but I put off the switch a bit till I have explored some more and improved the terrain. With Democracy I have just realized (painfully) the problem of early switch before Galleons come along. Listing the date of founding the SSC might be helpful too. But perhaps the "summary" list is getting too long...

[solo]

SG(2),

Nuclear Power was included to represent that path along the tech tree. It also seemed like a significant milestone.

Elephant,

Continent #1 a second time was just by chance, as I was not even considering this, but for game #3 I will also look for a continent # other than #1 for a change of pace.

I do wander around until I locate an SSC site. Then I know the start is a good one for a comparison game. After that, I continue my own game from where I left off.

The summary is just that, the minimum requirement, and if the majority of players concur, we can make changes to it to make it a better synopsis of the game.

In the meantime, you're all encouraged to add more to your own summary when you post it.

I agree that early Democracy is really tricky. I've always wished there could have been a non-military ship in the game sometime earlier than when galleons appear.

[Elephant]

The nice thing about continent #1 is that it usually means the continent is pretty big, with several AI civs. This helps when demanding tribute under Monarchy, which will not work if you do not have a military unit or city on their continent.

I'm still playing out #1, have started thinking about what I will do differently in #2, but probably wont make that deadline. Dont change it just for me, though...

[SCG]

Was a rough game, losing Copes to the Celts before I or any civ i had contact with had mathmatics, but did do a decent job trading once i did find the Certs (Celts/Carts) continent. Game was already hopelessly behind schedule by then. Again did get a fairly quick start, but once again failed miserably midgame.

Civ 2 version 2.42 Custom (08-Oct-96), Windows ME
AC arrival: 1789 AD

Governments
Monarchy - N/A
Republic: 1650 BC
Democracy: 1580 AD
Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders
HG
MPE
Shakespeare's Theatere: 350 BC
Colossus: 600 BC
Copernicus
Isaac Newton's College: 560 AD
Leo's
Michaelangelo's
Darwin's: 1020 AD
SETI
Apollo Program: 1760 AD

SSC stats
size 8 : 250 BC
size 12: 50 BC
size 21: 340 AD
max. size: Size 22, 1768 AD

Techs
Trade: 1150 BC
Invention: 380 AD
Railroad: 880 AD
Automobile: 1500 AD
Nuclear Power: 1560 AD
Computers: 1730 AD
Flight: 1640 AD
Space Flight: 1758 AD
AC arrival: 1789 AD


Final thoughts: 1789 is certainly much better than 1926, especially when losing out on Copes. What really doomed me this game was not exploring east with a trireme early enough. No one to the west had any concept of mathematics, let alone astronomy by the time Copes was built (160 AD). Also, by not going east, i lost out on a lot of off-continent deliveries (and quicker deliveries too), not to mention space for an off-continent port city. Also, I probably researched Nuclear Fission too soon. I eventually got to where i could only gift Space Flight or Nuclear Fission, and really didn't want to part with either of those before i was ready to launch, probably costing me a couple of turns on discoveries leading up to launch. With the slow, clunky deliveries west, there were several times midgame i was going 8 turns without discovering anything. I also probably could have sacrified a couple 1-turn discoveries to discover democracy about a millinium earlier. I kept trying to line it up with Oedo years, and kept finding a lack of freights on the appropriate turns to make the discovery so kept researching something else. Also, i had the AI constantly offering alliances, but at the cost of going to war with another civ (carts offered 500 gold about every 150 years). I did get 1 alliance, but only tried 2x for gifts, and was blown off both times - paying more attention to the AI, i might have been able to get quite a bit of gold while in democracy. Also, the fact that our home continent completely wrapped around the world didn't help in trading. Also, i kept debating how to handle growing Home. I used the wheat to get it to 21, and seriously considered irrigating the silk to get the city to have more scientists. Eventually, when i was chopping down forests for the trade arrows, i switched the wheat to silk for the resources and never got it switched back, not sure if having another 5 scientists would have been worth it or not.

For the midgame, i should have finished more libraries before discovering Cerimonial Burial. i switched 2 to temples, wasting some shields. I also and pondering the worthwhileness of having the courthouse in the cities that grew to 8 so that we could use the 8th worker. In a couple cities that was key in being able to produce 10 shields vs 9 without teraforming, but also only allowed for about 6-10 more beakers per city at a cost of 1 gold per city.

On the plus side, it was really cool when Home was producing Hides, and Leptis Parva was demanding it. Starting the round i built superhighways, i was getting deliveries of 600-700 every turn for something like 10 consecutive turns. Also, for later deliveries, i sent a couple engineers to connect Kells and Illauntanig to the coast by railroad, allowing same turn large payoffs (and adding the roads increased their worker arrows ), kind of a compromise for not having trade colonies. Next game I hope to shave another 1-2 centuries off my landing again

Log to follow:

[SCG]

I deleted my entire Civ2 directory and reinstalled, however, I still get different commodity lists on my ME machine than i do on my 95 machine and my MGE version - for whatever that disclaimer is worth.

first thoughts: again stuck on continent #1 - who picks these starts? Again, no starting techs - which usually means we have no one in the immediate vicinity, although on a medium map, not sure how much that means. We are near the south pole and near the international date line. We have visible fish, but no other specials, and an off-limits hut in the logical first move location... silk

Civ 2 version 2.42 Custom (08-Oct-96)

BC years
4000: find silk to west, hutfinder says there is not a hidden special north of hut, so if city is founded nw of hut, only a 3 special site. check listings, looks like a 4 special site 4 spaces SW, 6 spaces NNW, decide to go to the SW site to explore (8,64), ponder what to do with 2nd settler. Decide to found where it stands Away founded., arrange for 2 science
3950: choose Alphabet
3850: find build site, there's a lot of forest here, may need a bit of work
3800: Home founded
3750: Alphabet choose Code of Laws
3700: rush warrior at Home
3650: find another silk... (10/22)
3600: rush warrior (Away)
3550: find whale
3500: Code of Laws choose Writing, find wheat - nice to have all Home specials discovered (0/33)
3150: Writing choose Horseback Riding (0/48)
3000: settlers at Home
2750: Beach founded
2700: key civ discovered something, beakers down to (38/40)
2650: Horseback Riding choose Literacy (2/60)
2500: settlers (Away)
2450: diplomat at Home
2350: Sea Pass founded
2200: Literacy choose Republic (0/72), might have a shot at -1850 discovery but will need key civ help
2050: key civ(s) not helping, research now at 27/78
2000: (36/78)
1950: (45/78) alter workers slightly
1900: (53/72)...
1850: (61/72) alter workers again, tinker with tax rate
1700: Chinese start Pyramids, meet spanish and find we are mighty, gift horseback riding, they don't offer techs to exchange and we don't have mapmaking yet, so hold off on other techs
1650: Republic, choose Ceremonial Burial, revolt and form Republic, disband all warriors towards various projects. looks like i'm going to have 2 libraries completed before i discover CB... (0/91)
1600: (22/84)
1550: (44/84)
1500: Celts start Hanging Gardens (68/84)
1450: Library at Home, Ceremonial Burial choose Bronze Working, contact Spanish, trade republic, writing, and literacy for Bronze working, Currency and Mapmaking, gift Code of Laws, but only receptive... research up to 165, we are down to strong, change productions to temples
1400: choose Trade, temples build Away and at Beach
1350: settlers at Sea Pass
1150: Trade choose Mysticism, Helperfounded, diplo prod changed to caravans, Temple will be finished at Home next turn, pause to decide whether worth brief luxury hike, would require up to 50%, or 20% since still finishing temples, could get Home to 4-5, find madrid
1000: Home at 5, lower luxes
975: find Germans, gift Republic and prereqs for maps, increase science at home 25% with einstiens, lowers mysticism by 1 turn
950: diplomat sent home, we are back up to mighty, beakers at 180
875: Mysticism choose Philosophy, halve luxuries, Hides (Home) delivered to Beach (d,40), rush temple
825: Chinese (Beijing) builds Pyramids, Celts (Carmarthen) builds Hanging Gardens
775: realize it may have been a mistake to grow Home to 5 without medicine...
700: Philosophy, Wheel, choose Medicine (225 beakers)
675: Germans start Great Library
625: complete 3 caravans,
600: Colossus at Home
575: Chinese start Great Library
475: Medicine, choose Masonry, contact Germans, exchange for Masonry and Seafaring, contact Spanish, exchange for Iron Working, strong... means chinese is key civ...
450: choose Construction
350: Shakespeare's Theatere
250: Home size 8, deplete luxuries
225: Sioux, Celts start Lighthouse
200: Harbor in Home, Construction, choose Engineering, Silver (d,100) to Home
150: Aquaduct in Home, realised i had left one of my delivery caravans sentries on a sentried trireme
75: Spanish start Great Library, Carthagenians start King Richard's Crusade, Hides (d, 28) Away to Beach
50: Home size 12, deplete luxuries
25: first caravan in line for Spanish, contact trying for maps, they blow me off...


AD Years

1 AD Marketplace at Home, discover Engineering, find Valencia
40: Celts (Cardiff) build the Lighthouse, gift about 6 techs (every extra i have) to Germans to get to worshipful for maps, find Chinese city, all still on same continent...
80: hides (d, 28) to Beach, found Near Home to act as a station
100: Dye (d,64) to Toledo, find Seville
120: Seville builds Great Library - not going to get much gifting to Spanish now..., Beijing builds Marco Polo's Embassy
140: Sanitation, choose Mathematics, not enough gold to rush sewer, raise lux
160: Utica (Carthagenian) builds King Richard's Crusade, Celts (Cardiff) build Copernicus' Observatory
180: Sewer System at Home
260: find Carthagenians, exchange for Mathematics, gift 2 more techs for maps, I'm still Strong...
280: choose Astronomy... beakers at 672
300: Meet Chinese, gift techs for maps, gift about 10 more and get beakers to 576
340: Home size 21, Copper to Seville (d, 288) from Home, Dye to Shanghai (d, 120) from Sea Pass
380: Slim Buttes (Sioux) build Oracle, we discover Invention, choose University, get Monarchy from Germans when checking to see if they have anything worth taking...
400: Gems to Seville (d, 207), spanish are Icy, contact for peace and gift Trade?
420: Silk to Home (d, 75) from Near Home
440: University, choose Theory of Gravity, start building colosseums in helper cities, Dye to Madrid (d, 42) from Helper, Salt to Berlin (d, 60) from Beach,
520: Theory of Gravity choose Navigation, try and figure where the heck i can put a trade colony - the best traders are all on my continent, i may found a city near Utica, but would be a port for delivery there, carts have filled in their area, and i need roads leading there. Celts seem to be north of the Carts, Sioux seem to be north of spanish on (possibly on same continent) means Carts and Celts are only off-continent traders - heck, our continent seems to wrap around and overlap, with the easternmost portion lying north of the westernmost portion.
560: Isaac Newton's College
600: Navigation, choose Bridge Building, found Almost a Colony, should demand the gold once i get 3 more techs...
640: Hides to Nanking (d, 252) from Home
660: Bridge Building choose Feudalism, trade for Feudalism from Carthagenians, darn carts still don't know what a Celt city looks like
680: choose Physics
700: Silver to Home (d, 67) from Near Home, creates Wine supply but blocks all 3 demands at Home...
720: Physics, choose Chemistry wonder why its not offering Steam Engine , Beads to Tsingtao (d, 212) from Home, meet Celts, gift for maps
760: Chemistry choose Steam Engine, Beads to Cardiff (d, 108) from Sea Pass
800: gold to Near Home (d, 81) from Home
820: Steam Engine choose Railroad
840: Hides to Nanking (d, 258) from Home
860: Seville (Spanish) builds Leonardo's Workshop, Leptis Parva (Carthagenian) builds Sun Tsu's War Acadamy, 2 separate barb landings near Almost a Colony
880: Railroad, choose gunpowder
920: Spanish show off gunpower, gift 2 techs and exchange for Gunpowder
940: choose Pottery, exchange railroad with chinese for Pottery we're still strong so gift everything else too - beakers at 988
960: Explosives choose Polytheism, trade for Polytheism with Carts, we're still strong
980: Beads to Canton (d, 60) from Beach, Wine to Carthage (d, 384), Dye to Malaca (d, 259) from Home
1000: Magnetism, choose Banking
1020: Darwin's Voyage, Banking, Industrialization, choose Metalurgy,
1040: Gems to Tsingtao (d, 212) from Home
1060: Machiavelli's report shows who my key civ has been as the Chinese are 2nd most advanced , and the Spanish, with their great library are 3rd. the Sioux, who i have yet to contact are dead last. somehow I've slipped to Moderate? means i need to gift the Spanish now..., rush everything before contacting since i have no power rating now..., only 2 techs able to gift... beakers down to 1118
1080: Metalurgy
1100: Magellan's Expedition built by Celts (Tintagel). Dye to Carthage (d, 72) from Almost a Colony
1120: Spice to Beijing (d, 286) from Home
1140: Economics, choose The Corportation, Silver to Carthage (d, 120) from Sea Pass, Copper to Madrid (d, 54), Wool to Carthage (xd, 64) 2 more undemanded caravans to Carthage, both around 50, frees Silver
1200: The Corporation choose Electricity, found Port City
1240: Spanish offer alliance? accept, gift techs and share maps! They've founded Bilbao where i was going to plant my last settler, found Former Settler
1260: hides to Cadiz (d,70) to from Home, Dye to Nanking (d, 58) from Near Home
1280: Electricity, share maps with several civs, Hides to Leptis Parva (d, 308) from Home, Hides to Berlin (d, 59) from Helper
1300: Gold to Madrid (d, 204), Hides (xd, 46) to Valencia from Home,
1320: Chinese demonstrate Democracy, we discover Steel, choose Chivalry, Oil (d,98, d,140, d, 133) Dye (d,72) to Home, Hides (d,308, d,52) to Leptis Parva, gift techs to Spanish
1340: Chivalry, choose Refining, Oil (d, 72) to Home, Wine (d, 64) to Salamanca, Hides (d, 308) to Leptis Parva, Copper (d,76) to Caralis
1360: hides (d,162, 44) to Hamburg
1380: Refining, choose Electronics, Gems (d, 600) to Caralis, Hides (d,52) to Leptis Parva
1400: Salt (d, 88) to Tintagel, Hides (280) to Leptis Parva
1420: Electronics, choose Combustion, Dye (d, 56) to Utica
1440: Carthage builds Eifel Tower, Salt (d, 115) to Tintagel, Hides (316) to Leptis Parva
1460: Combustion, choose Automobile, dye (d, 132) to Nanking, salt (d,64) to Tintagel, Gems (d,188) to Cardiff, Salt (xd, 39) to Home
1480: Hides (d,56, d, 320) to Leptis Parva
1500: Automobile choose Mass Production, Beads (d,168) to Kells, Dye (d, 110) to Beijing
1510: Superhighways at Home, Hides (d,606) to Leptis Parva
1520: Mass Production, Hides (d,606) to Leptis Parva, start rushing Superhighways
1530: Leadership, choose Nuclear Fission (Home made discovery, won't be able to discover next turn (again) Hides (d,606) to Leptis Parva,
1540: Beads (d,108) to Kells, Beads (d,606) to Leptis Parva, start rushing libraries
1550: Nuclear Fission, choose Nuclear Power, Salt (d,372) to Caerphilly, Hides (d, 660) to Leptis Parva
1560: Chinese build Statue of Liberty, we discover Nuclear Power choose The Laser, Salt (d,222) to Caerphilly, Hides (d, 690) to Leptis Parva - I'm not looking forward to Flight, those Hides deliveries are going to get decimated - Colossus+Superhighways+3 RR silk
1570: The Laser, choose Democracy (took forever to line up with Oedo years, probably should have cranked taxes for a couple turns a few centuries ago...), Hides (d,702) to Leptis Parva
1580: discover, revolt, form Democracy, choose Conscription, Hides (d, 756) to Leptis Parva
1590: Conscription, choose Tactics - no more hides at Home was a good run though , Salt (d,120) to Berlin
1600: not much, all supplies currently blocked, partly by shipchains out of place with change of demand
1620: Tactics, choose Flight more moving of freight, delay flight by starting celebrations, not enough gold to rush last superhighway so buy courthouse, salt
1630: Salt (d,1134) to Tintagel
1640: Flight, choose Machine Tools, Spice (d, 200), Gems (d, 492) to Nanking, Gold (d, 200) to Beijing, Beads (xd, 130) to Rhymney
1650: Machine Tools choose Radio, salt (xd, 56) to Beach, resets both Beach and Home Lists
1660: Toynbee describes me as hopeless in the Power Ratings. Dye (d, 256), Wine (xd, 282) to Carthage
1670: Dye (d,244) to Kells
1680: Radio, choose Miniaturization, hides (d,140) Salt (xd, 56) to Leptis Parva
1690: hides (d,140) to Leptis Parva
1700: Spanish finish Michaelangelo's, we discover Miniaturization
1710: nothing much
1720: Salt (xd, 112) to Utica
1730: Computers, choose Advanced Flight, wine (d, 277) to Salamanca,
1750: Advanced Flight, choose Rocketry Hides (xd, 50) Home from Away, frees commodities in both cities
Hides (d, 220) to Panormus, Salt (xd, 55) to Home, Hides (xd, 114) to Carthage
1752: wine (d,277) to Salamanca
1754: Beijing builds UN, we discover Rocketry, choose Space Flight
1758: Space Flight choose Plastics, Dye (d, 244), Gems (d, 996) to Kells, Salt (xd, 122) to Illauntanig
1760: Apollo Program, Plastics, choose Monotheism, gold (d,312) to Cork, gems (d,426) to Kells, Dye (d, 344) to Illauntanig, exchange several techs for Monotheism with Chinese (current key civ)
1762: choose Superconductor, 6 SSS, Superconductor, choose Fusion Power
1764: 2 SSS
1766: 3 SSS, Gems (d,426), Gems (d,996) to Kells
1768: 2 SSS, 1 SSC, Home size 22, Wine (d,540) to Armagh, Gems (d,1020) to Kells, Dye (d,276), Salt (xd, 128) to Illauntanig, sell several harbors, sell sewer system, sell several libraries
1770: Fusion Power, choose Genetic Engineering, 2 SSS, 3 SSC, Copper (d,140) to Utica, Salt (xd, 128) to Illauntanig, sell aquaduct, 1 more harbor, several more libraries
1772: 2 SSC, gems (d,450) to Kells, Dye (d,800), Dye (d,396) to Illauntanig, contact allied Spanish, gift advanced Flight, ask for gift, they tell me to shove off (I'm only strong), sell 5 superhighways, last library
1774: Sioux demand trade, physics, gift 2 more techs trying for alliance, they want war with chinese, so decline, 3 SSM, Launch, target AC in 1789
1775: Dye (d,396), Beads (xd, 400) to Illauntanig
1776: Genetic Engineering, choose Mobile Warfare, Dye (d,696) to Kells, salt (xd,83) to Illauntanig (no SH)
1780: Mobile Warfare, choose Robotics
1782: Carthagenians decide to land and walk into Sea Pass, then offer me 500 gold for me to go to war against the Celts. for 700 gold, purchace my city back.
1789: belated landing on Alpha Centauri