The first wonder to build

[TCO]

people who don't like the pyramids are still scared of deity unhappiness. Doubling your growth rate is the way to go.

[TCO]

Ramses, wrt your question. If P and HG are unavailable, STWA is my next priority.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by ramses II.
But now back to my thread. The question was, which wonder would you build if the HG, the Pyras and the Colossus are no more available? I often take MPE or the GL.

That would never happen in my games. I've never screwed up to the point where I have neither Colossus or HG, happily. Hypothetically, if I lost both of those, I'd probably take MPE and trade techs like crazy while trying to crank out Settlers and Warriors, ICSing. I've tried Pyramids without HG, and the added growth only means added unhappiness, in the early going.

To CR: 3 wonders before 500 BC; I'm not sure I've ever done that - nice work! To me, early trade seems like a gamble... the number of times I've sent caravans on long trips, only to
a) lose them to sneak attacks
b) hunt in vain for a fat AI city to trade with, or
c) come up with a trade bonus of <100, after all the effort.

STYOM

[TCO]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


I've tried Pyramids without HG, and the added growth only means added unhappiness, in the early going.

Very common reaction from players who are still overly intimidated by deity unhappiness.

Just use elvi, and warriors more. keep the cities tiny...and if necessary, move workers to lower food production (higher trade, shields). once you get Mikes, it is all cake. missing HG is not that big a deal. (I love it, though. But missing it is not thay aweful.)

[rah]

I used to think not getting HG and/or Mikes was devestating. But after a lot of MP games you learn to deal with having neither, since it happens a lot. There are a couple of other stratagies that will work. SOL and Communism (or fundy for those the diehards) is one. Building a financial empire is another with markets banks and good trade routes. I've actually heard that building cathedrals can work

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by GP
Very common reaction from players who are still overly intimidated by deity unhappiness.

GP a newbie might think what patronising bullsh*t!
However, I know differently...just spam your way to Deity Have you made it to the top 10 posters yet?
----------------

SG(2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by GP
Very common reaction from players who are still overly intimidated by deity unhappiness.

Oh yes, that's me to a T

Originally posted by GP
Just use elvi, and warriors more. keep the cities tiny...and if necessary, move workers to lower food production (higher trade, shields). once you get Mikes, it is all cake. missing HG is not that big a deal. (I love it, though. But missing it is not thay aweful.)

If you're going to keep the cities tiny, why have Pyramids at all? The food box starts at empty when you found a city, so no help getting from size 1 to 2. Now, Pyr/HG is a good combo, because you can get to size 3-4 faster... but without HG, I'd rather keep 'em at size 2 and crank out Settlers.

If you don't like representative government, I agree, Pyramids makes sense... otherwise, WLTPD is faster.

STYOM

[TCO]

Use martial law and SOL fundy.

[Caesar the Great]

bah! wonders suck, you don't need them to win!

[ramses II.]

@GP
I'm not afraid of unhappiness caused by the pyramids. I do not hesitate making the first citizen an Elvis. When I miss HG, I'm on my way to Michelangelo's and SoL. Then my pop increases like crazy.

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man

To me, early trade seems like a gamble... the number of times I've sent caravans on long trips, only to
a) lose them to sneak attacks
b) hunt in vain for a fat AI city to trade with, or
c) come up with a trade bonus of <100, after all the effort.

STYOM

Yes, these things happen. I guess it's three more arguments in favour of the LH/MPE combo that arii used...

If I don't have MPE, I try to minimise the risks you mention. Losing caravans due to sneak attacks can be avoided by trading with coastal cities. Unloading the caravans directly into the city avoids all contact with a potentially angry AI.

If I have to embark first (the target city is a square or two from the sea), I always yield to their demand (within reason). They want 50 gold and I only have 51? Fine, my camel will bring it back the next turn and a science bonus! They want Map Making on top of that? Even better, maybe they will exchange maps (taking care of b) above)! They want a wonder tech? No problem, I'll rush it with the caravans back home later!

Finally, I believe the general consensus is that the AI is more aggressive and hostile in MGE? Playing 2.42 helps...

As for b), I guess playing a game a second time helps... Otherwise, I try to exchange maps, which can be tricky. I have to get them in a good mood by feeding them techs and the way the game handles this is poor. Why didn't the game designers give the player the chance to choose among all his/her techs??? Anyway, giving them Map Making is a must.

As for c), early in the game even a small cash bonus goes a long way filling the science box. I try to have a couple (3-4) of size 2 or 3 cities producing at least 5 shields. With 99 gold from a caravan I can buy a five shield row (11 gold each) in some of them every second turn nine times. If the second caravan brings in another 99 gold I will soon have 4 new caravans at home, enabling me to build the wonder that an AI may have started on.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by GP
people who don't like the pyramids are still scared of deity unhappiness.

Hah, hah, hah! Yes, I have trouble sleeping at night...

I think STYOM nailed it. If you plan to go representative, who needs them? It has been said before (by Smash?), but WLTLD = Instant Pyramids...

If you plan to go commie or fundie, ok, then why not? I'll buy the argument of using martial law warriors under Monarchy to curb unhappiness, but why do you want to grow only to use Elvis (unless it's only for a couple of turns)? Wait, you like his picture?

Carolus

[TCO]

Elvis makes other people in the city happy. Not just himself. plus I listed other options. (shifting resources away from food, etc.) Try to think a little more deeply, Rex.

[War4ever]

on a conquest game , its far too easy to just let the ai hav e pyramids/any other wonder you don't really need... and go in and take it from them while you sight see their nation.....

In SP games, the pyramids isn't an option for me...like everyone states...the ai loves the pyramids....and i am usually too busy getting MPE, HG, STWA etc to really give a damm...

besides by mid game , i generally have ALL the wonders unless the map has been quite unruly to me

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by GP
Elvis makes other people in the city happy. Not just himself.

No kidding? Are you sure?

My point was this: what's the point of growing a city only to pick off the new worker? No extra shields, no extra trade... Which is why I said it was a short-term solution.

Originally posted by GP
plus I listed other options.

Which I said I agreed with.

Carolus