Campo Challenge 1

[Campo]

I've been out of town since last Tuesday. Back to work today and catching up on this thread. Very interesting discussions!

I downloaded the new attachments and will review them when I get a chance.

[-Jrabbit]

Well, I finished the Campo Challenge.

My results don't compare to others posted here, so I see no reason to muddy the waters with a bunch of inferior saves. The basic approach was to get Crusaders, get Democracy/SOL, then switch to Fundamentalism. (Of course, there were plenty of missteps along the way...) Waves of Diplomats tore down city walls and bribed, with Crusaders (and, at the end, Dragoons) taking out the defenders.

Total victory came in (IIRC) 1862 with a score of just under 1000. Like I said, no comparison to some of the expert games posted here. But it gave me my 2nd Deity win, so I'm a happy camper.

Thanx for the challenge, Campo. It was fun.

[Campo]

Glad you enjoyed it, Jrabbit.

I played a new game using DrFell's approach to this one (after studying his save games).

The results were interesting. After Monarchy I rushed to Polytheism and built vet elephants, followed by Feudalism and vet Crusaders. My army went on a blitz of territory previously explored by diplos. I was doing great until I came to the Germans. They completed the Great Wall the turn before I reached them. By then I was short of diplos but had a decent army of vet attackers, so I took a chance and attacked Berlin (which was situated on a river). I lost my whole army to (I think) two phalanxes and a legion. One of the phalanxes was like a Super Defender -- it endured wave after wave without any loss of strength. That ended my hopes of a fast conquest.

However I learned a few lessons. One of the primary ones was that I didn't really enjoy the game (even disregarding my unfortunate battle for Berlin). I missed the city improvement process, the competition for wonders, the unit-building decisions, etc. I want the game to last long enough to enjoy those developments.

I'm thinking about having "Campo Challenge II", in which I'll pose some conditions for victory -- for example, several techs that have to be discovered, some number of Wonders to be built (probably not the specific wonders, just a given number), perhaps a minimum number of city improvements or city sizes, etc. I'd like to give this more thought but if there's any interest I'll be happy to do it.

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by Campo
I'm thinking about having "Campo Challenge II", in which I'll pose some conditions for victory

There is a nice challenge of that kind offered by the game: it is named Space Ship

[Campo]

There is a nice challenge of that kind offered by the game: it is named Space Ship

Is that the one where the human player tries to build a space ship to go to Alpha Centauri, and while doing so all of the AI civs attack relentlessly, turn after turn, intent only on tech theft and total destruction of the human? Yeah, I think I've heard of it.

[DrSpike]

I like early landing games, but the AI is much less hostile with tech gifting, which is necessary for an early landing. This usually means the game becomes a battle of trade empires. Of course this isn't necessarily a bad thing, these games call for a lot of skill, but you may find extreme early landing games lacking as you did the pure conquest game.

For future conquest games I suggest medium map with small or medium archipelago land. As I'm sure you now realise the settings for the first game contributed to the lack of depth in the optimal strategy. Small map, with all civs starting on the same continent close together is always an elly or maybe crusader rush game.

[Bloody Monk]

CAMPO

Thanks for the experience; this was a new mode for me. I learned that my usual tactics would be disasterous in an MP game. But I tried new ideas and completed the "kill all the civs in one turn" in 720a. Looking over the results I was not nearly focused enough on building vet killers and keeping the build orders lean. I think I could do better, and would participate in a new 'challenge.'

I am disappointed that most of the respondents did not save their attachments in v2.42 so I couldn't open them. I think I would have learned a lot, especially if I could have followed Dr. Fell's game. (it's probably asking a lot to hope that someone would send in an attachment of his game in 2.42 )

I'll post some ideas that may be new in another missive. Thanks again .

[Bloody Monk]

A few things that might be useful from my game....

-I like to explore before laying down the first city. Open up the map to find sites and pop any nearby huts. I'll keep popping huts til I get a tech--NONs and cash are as important as building in the right place. I built London and York in 3700, and still got and revolted to Monarcy in 2450 b, with 5 cities.

-Build Canal cities to open up access across land bridges. I built one W of London below the grain, another E beyond the mountains after irragating the forest, and several others.

-I let the Aztecs build the Pyramids, then took it and all their cities but one. But only after I completed Mike's. Growth is a pain before that, but afterwards, the reduced food box is a path to bigger cities without revolting in and out of Republic. This was around 225 b.

-Probably others mentioned this. In my game the barbs took a Viking city. I set up a dip by it and used the Barb city as a Honeypot for NON Archers. I like that better than buying the city, which I finally did at the end. BTW, except for the Barb City I played 'no city bribe'. All the AI cities were taken by Military conquest.

This was fun!! I am constantly amazed at how cool CIV II is, and really wish 'it' could have been tweaked instead of....

[Campo]

it's probably asking a lot to hope that someone would send in an attachment of his game in 2.42

I'm not aware of any way to open an MGE saved game and then save it in 2.42 format.

DrFell's approach was pretty straightforward: found maybe 8 cities (it's been a while since I looked at it), barracks in each, diplos to explore and bribe, vet elephants to conquer. However even after looking at his saved games I couldn't do it as quickly as he did.

In my game Barbs took an Aztec city. I used it as a NON unit farm just as you did the Viking city.

I agree with you about Civ -- I wish they'd have released the proverbial Civ 2.5 instead of Civ 3.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Campo
I'm not aware of any way to open an MGE saved game and then save it in 2.42 format.

This business of making sense of computer process is borderline magic to me and I am decidedly not an adept. You might have noticed that I didn't add an attachment, for instance. Fear of breaking something syndrome. Anyway, thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Campo

DrFell's approach was pretty straightforward: found maybe 8 cities (it's been a while since I looked at it), barracks in each, diplos to explore and bribe, vet elephants to conquer. However even after looking at his saved games I couldn't do it as quickly as he did.

How quickly, especially the first time, is not as important as learning a new Strat. I'm sure you agree. What I wonder about is the balance of tax-v-science and whether any effort was made toward an SSC to speed advances?? What WOW's were built?? Any trade at all or was it "prowl and growl" from the start??

I think I started researching Poly in 2150b. If I understood the Big Picture of this Strat better I might go back and replay. I know it's been a while but whatever you can remember would be enlightening. Thanks

[Campo]

I can't recall his tax-science rates, but there wasn't any SCC development. IIRC (and I looked at everyone's save games so I might be confusing some), no wonders and no city improvements except for barracks. He used a few entertainers for happiness control. It was very sparse and direct.

I tried a game using his style. I could mimic the process but not the speed -- he's very efficient. I didn't continue that approach because it was too sparse for me; I like the city development process.

I can't recall his exact tech path. Fast to Monarchy, early Writing, then obviously to Polytheism for elephants. He might have had a few Crusaders towards the end but I'm not sure.

[DrSpike]

You don't need science after polytheism for a conquest game with these settings. Vet elephants will mash everything till Feudalism, which the AI wont get for ages anyway. If you have MPE you'll know their techs paths and can plan researching monotheism if necessary. Other than that taxes at 70%, lux at 30% is fine, so you can rushbuy elephants and diplos, and maybe the occasional phalanx.

[Bloody Monk]

Campo and DrSpike

I've been staring at your responses scratching my head, more or less dumb-
founded. That is so different from the usual for me; and I appreciate how I might also find this too sparse. Even the Mongols encouraged culture and science--in the cities that were left standing.

Oh, well! All I need is an attitude adjustment--who cares about those stinking temples anyway, or ego boosting WOW's and science, right?? I can already see I'll have to watch myself to stay focused; but I am inclined to try this just to find out what it's like. I hope it's not like kicking the dog.

Bloody Monk trying to convince heself this will be fun.......

[SlowThinker]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
(it's probably asking a lot to hope that someone would send in an attachment of his game in 2.42 )

Try this:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ2cedric.shtml

and tell us if it works...