Announcement

**Marquis de Sodaq** · April 17, 2001, 10:08

I like Ming's idea of one locked thread, which would be the Great Library itself, or rather, it's card catalog. SG2, is your idea that this locked thread would be the index with links to all the relevant info threads? Essentially an index like in the back of a book, with under S the word spy that is a link to ST's diplo/spy thread?

A second thread for discussion would crop up anyway, so we may as well have a designated one at the top of the forum. This could be where people can announce their plan to make a complete info thread, and on what topic. Or call for a topic to be compiled.

I think the actual compiled knowledge should remain as is (e.g. the diplo/spy thread), in a thread with one summary post and discussion following. Players always discover something new, requiring edits/additions to the main post.

Looking back thru this thread, it appears that the SGs, SlowThinker, and I are the main "librarians," with help from La Fayette and Edward. Who else is contributing significantly at this point?

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

**airdrik** · April 17, 2001, 13:32

On your links, you should use the name of the thread as the link so that people looking at it can see a little more about what the thread is about ie. [ url... ] A thread about stuff [ /url ]

**Marquis de Sodaq** · April 17, 2001, 13:49

SG2, the only problems I see are:

1) The index should alphabetize on the primary noun, e.g. the obvious place to look for technology threads, T, has only trade. I suggest using subgroups under the keywords:

O
OCC (One City Challenge)
...OCC "Paulicy" (link)
...with size 4 city (link)
...etc

T
technology
...first 20 techs - discussion (link)
...etc
trade
...maximizing (link)
...etc

The subgroups allow multiple topics under one keyword, instead of under several letters. While you don't like ST's hierarchy, the keywords are indispensable, IMHO.

2) Make the url the thread title where possible. It gives a better sense of the topic than the cryptic address.

3) Use proper spelling. It looks like you used "Capital" as it appears in the linked thread. But they were discussing the Capitol. Common mistake, but one worth correcting.

It would be easy to come up with terms to identify different types of links, such as your "- discussion", above. The diplo/spy and combat summary threads could have something like "- info" or "- summary" to separate them. Great start to getting this library in a usable form!
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 17, 2001).]

**SlowThinker** · April 17, 2001, 15:26

Perfect work, SG(2).
Are links that are spread through this thread included?
I agree with aidrik very strongly.
Don't you want to make a simple html table? If yes then see How to build a condensed thread on page 4.

I see you stopped our discussion about advantages and disadvantages of our concepts again
But I will continue:
Tell me if you hate my impolite way of a communication. I will stop.

1.
Do you want to collect any thread that contains some useful information or best threads only? If you want to collect any thread, then the alphabetical index and the system of keywords do the same work:
When I got the idea of keywords, I compared both ways. IMHO the index is more laborious. You will need a separate thread where we will send new links(Or do you want to do it yourself?):
keywords system: people add 5 keywords for example
index: people will send you 5 suggestions, you will check them and file them into 5 separate places.
summary: keywords and index may cooperate IMHO, but it would be less laborious to build the index later when there will be many threads with keywords included.

2.
I would vote for a hierarchical structure of the index.
If I am looking for any information about advances: how will I know that I have to look under "Starting Techs"? (IMO the index will be very large).
An alphabetical index is better if the topic has no structure. But Civ2 is well structured.

**SlowThinker** · April 17, 2001, 15:28

quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
Looking back thru this thread, it appears that the SGs, SlowThinker, and I are the main "librarians," with help from La Fayette and Edward. Who else is contributing significantly at this point?

Add people from GL: Who will participate, maybe Roman

But I think we need more active people to build the Great Library. What about to join forces of Apolyton and CivFanatics? I noticed there is a good traffic now. Do you think that people would agree to be registered on both servers?

**Scouse Gits** · April 17, 2001, 23:53

Thank you for the interest and suggestions.

The crude index I cobbled together in just over an hour this afternoon (something called work kept getting in the way!) provides a basis for discussion.

Airdrik - Yes, I agree with you.

Marquis de Sodaq - Capital on my side of the Pond You make some good observations. Have you a list of the "keywords" in alphabetical order? If so - can we all have a read?

Slow Thinker - I don't think you are impolite - you have as much right as anybody else to express your opinions.

The problems as I see them are:

1) We need a Great Library as a reference point for posters new and old.
2) This thread is ripe for closure because of its length, so there is a need for swift action. Ming has suggested a solution, which I believe we should adopt.
3) The information in the GL must have a better means of access - which in my opinion is an index.
4) There are many ways to create an index, (see above) can we read the list of keywords?
5) Once the index is in place, coupled with a discussion thread (which will allow you to promote your more elaborate ideas) we can gauge reaction. I would prefer to point something at the sky and see if it flies, rather than theorise about aerodynamics indefinitely!
6) No I don't think we should include any other sites. I'm sure there are some very capable people at CivFanatics, but I don't consider putting an index into the Apolyton GL should involve anyone else but us. Once you incorporate an outside body it will take years to agree anything! In the meantime this thread will be stretching from Liverpool to Prague - and the world will be enjoying CIV 14.

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SG(2)

**Scouse Gits** · April 18, 2001, 00:01

**SlowThinker** · April 18, 2001, 08:43

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
4) There are many ways to create an index, (see above) can we read the list of keywords?

"The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
6) No I don't think we should include any other sites. I'm sure there are some very capable people at CivFanatics, but I don't consider putting an index into the Apolyton GL should involve anyone else but us.

I was thinking about "condensed" threads. They could manage several topics at CivFanatics.

Closing this thread

quote:

Originally posted by Scouse Gits
2) ... Ming has suggested a solution, which I believe we should adopt.

We should continue in the debate about the content of the first closed thread. Time of the closure may come soon. Our opinion are differentiated:
I would minimize the first closed thread and include links only, so that Ming needn't be asked for frequent unlocking.
See my post posted April 17, 2001 07:08.

**Ming** · April 18, 2001, 10:58

Since this is such an important job that you guys are doing, I'm going to cut you a LOT of slack on when I close this thread. It still seems like you need to iron out a few differences. However, if it does take a LONG time for you guys to come to agreement, you might just have to start a new "discussion" thread and provide a link to this old thread. When the time is right, (and you guys tell me), I will archive this thread so that any link you use in the new thread is valid. (I want to archive this one instead of just closing it so that it doesn't accidently get swept out with the trash when normal housekeeping occurs)

Keep up the good work guys... the civ community appreciates it!

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Ming
ACS Civ II & OT Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

**Marquis de Sodaq** · April 18, 2001, 11:59

Re: Debating the content of the closed thread

I vote to have the GL's first post be a finalized version of SG2's quickie index, above. This will retain links to all knowledge deemed worthy. As librarians, we ought to filter out the useful threads from the hooey, excluding the latter.

In the spirit (and success) of the diplo/spy and combat threads, additional posts should be used for:

Description of what the GL thread is,
Description of what the different linked thread types are (discussion, strategy, info compilation, etc),
Directions for use of the GL and any associated thread(s), such as where to comment or submit new info.

SG2, I know of many US/UK spelling differences, but capital/-ol is new to me! I agree that we need to get the GL flying instead of always ruminating about what can be...

**SlowThinker** · April 18, 2001, 13:26

quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
I vote to have the GL's first post be a finalized version of SG2's quickie index, above.

IMHO the placement of SG's index depends SG and Ming, they have to fix if the index will be included in the "top closed thread" or will be referred from:
SG, how often do you think to update it?
Ming, how often are you willing to unlock-lock the "top closed thread"?

But I suggest a separated thread for the index: people could send suggestions for interesting threads.

quote:

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq
Description of what the GL thread is,

Description of what the different linked thread types are (discussion, strategy, info compilation, etc),

Directions for use of the GL and any associated thread(s), such as where to comment or submit new info.

Wouldn't you be willing to write it?
(I suppose a detailed description about the system of condensed threads and "keywords" would stay in "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread (I will add "How to build a condensed thread" etc.), you could create only a brief lead-in with a link to "The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.)

**Ming** · April 18, 2001, 14:13

"Ming, how often are you willing to unlock-lock the "top closed thread"?"

As often as needed, but I don't assume this is something that would need to be done every day or so. And, if worse comes to worse, maybe I can ask MarkG and DanQ to make one of the "Keepers of the Library" a mod in just this forum. That would give one of you the ability to open and close the thread as needed. I don't think that would be necessary, but you never know

Again, the key here is to pick a format/option that everybody can work with. (so I can close this thread before I get to much grief for keeping something open past 150 )

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Ming
ACS Civ II & OT Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

**Scouse Gits** · April 18, 2001, 14:42

May I suggest that we follow Marquis de Sodaq's suggestion.

In the next couple of days I will attempt to smarten up the basic index with an introduction and more descriptive links.

When this is done Ming can cut and paste the index into a new locked thread. This current thread can then be archived.

The open discussion thread that will complement the locked thread will give an opportunity for Slow Thinker and others, to discuss the evolution of a GL in a different format. Perhaps we should have a simple index running in parallel with a more elaborate alternative - I don't see a problem with that approach. However, in my opinion Slow Thinker's ideas will take more time than we have at present - even if Ming is generous in allowing this current thread to run on borrowed time.

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SG(2)

**Mixam** · April 18, 2001, 23:48

Ok seeing as how i cannot figure out if there is a great library yet or not I decided to read the entire thread. Darned but i only made it to page 2 b4 i fell asleep. Being very dedicated to finding this out i started reading again when i woke up. Made it to page 4 and i am getting pretty tired

Please help me out. I found a few good links in the posts but I really wanna find the GL if it exists yet *yawn*.

Maybe after I wake up again i will make it to the end and won't need this answered. This post may only be 5 pages long but I click on everylink and end up reading for a while till i find another link pretty soon i have to hit back on the browser 3 times to get back to this thread

Ok I am done rambling

**SlowThinker** · April 19, 2001, 06:23

Mix(i )am,
wait couple days, SG will create a basis of the GL.

SG,
OK.

Announcement

Apolyton's "Great Library"

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