A poll: do you accept caravan rehoming?

[Blaupanzer]

I also vote no. This is a case actually addressed in the game, which informs you you can't do it (when on main map). The fact that there is a way around that does not abrogate that rule. Secondly, the trade represents a stream of goods. Gold from Paris can't be suddenly cause a gold mine to appear in Marseilles just because of rehoming. Sid says in a recent interview in CGW that Civ III will revisit trade. The cities will trade in the commodities inside their radii, it appears.

[Deity Dude]

NO

[Boney]

For what it is worth I also say NO for both. But I do think that solo games should be fun and if they are not then you should give up, and if cheating enhances your fun and leaves you with a clear conscience, so be it.

[Scouse Gits]

La Fayette - there is a definite difference between the two cases - no end of Apolyton polls will make a black face cost 6 or 8 luxuries to become happy - it would make for a fun game if this were the case - not least an absolute limit to the size of a stable Monarchy for example! This 'feature' is not one I 'use' - I just do whatever it takes to keep my (rather large) empire fairly content ...

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Guest]

quote: Originally posted by Hasdrubal on 04-05-2001 10:20 AM One more no. It is clearly another unintended feature, making the game easier for the human player yet again.

This is an excellent argument which made an appeal to me. I also think that despite all AI cheating etc. this game gets eventually "too easy" for experienced players even at deity level. After hundreds of playing hours of course - the mastery of Civ2 is a loooooong process and takes a lot of studying and experimenting. This is also the beauty of the game: a beginner and a veteran both can enjoy the game!

That's why I'm going to flip from "pro"-side to "against"-side when it applies SP. However, I would allow it in the special occasion of a "new record" hunting, given that you tell this to others like Solo did in "AC 772" record. I concur with SG(2):

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-05-2001 02:47 AM If people do post records they should make it clear (like Solo did) if they have rehomed caravans. I don't see any problem in having two sets of records, one for those that do and another for those that don't! SG(2)

It's kinda similar than the "AC in BC with OC" which is possible only by using a special rivered-hut map. These two records are still outstanding and when pursuing those IMHO it's allowed to take advantage of all little sneaky tricks which are possible, excluding "save/tip a hut-->barbs/load"-kind of cheats of course.

quote: Originally posted by Gastrifitis on 04-05-2001 12:26 AM BTW, do you have a vested interest in this permission, Marko?

Yes I have. If I'm going to try shooting a record I need to know what's allowed and what's not. Also we need to have the same rules in succession games. I admit it: I have used caravan rehoming. This derives from my Civ1-days where this was absolutely "legal" practise. When I moved to Civ2 last autumn I discoverd this trick all by myself and happily started using it. After this discussion, however, I'll drop it altogether and I'm not going to miss it.


[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited April 06, 2001).]

[La Fayette]

May I ask ONE question?
Doesn't any of you rehome settlers or military units (for example build them in a city with barracks and station them where needed)?
I do that all the time (and I suppose anyone does).
Why should that be allowed for ANY unit except caravan?

I wouldn't like to appear to be stubborn or unable to listen to what the others say, but frankly I don't understand:
this feature (rehoming) is common practice in modern economy (and in fact has always been, as 'le Marquis de Sodaq' just explained).
this feature (rehoming) is allowed for ANY unit in this game with help of the same button 'support from this city'.
Why should it be forbidden for ONE unit named caravan?


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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[rah]

Because when you try to rehome a caravan you get a message saying you can't do it. So obviously it was the designers intent to not allow you to do it. The programmers just forgot that there was another way to do it, hence the discussion here.

RAH

[DaveV]

La Fayette - the rationale behind caravans (realistic or not is a separate debate) is that they represent a limited supply of goods traveling between cities. The value of the goods is higher when they come from a more productive (= higher trade) city. So, rushbuilding twenty caravans in size-3 cities, rehoming them to your SSC and vastly increasing their trade value is counter to the game's built-in limitations on trade.

To answer your question more directly: caravans/freights are unique units, representing trade goods rather than a military force. As such, they have a unique source, which helps determine their value.

Edit: I agree that the black to light blue conversion is a bug. It is embedded in the game, however, and the only way to avoid exploiting it at Deity is to limit the number of cities. I've played an MP game with a limit of 12 cities, and it was interesting, but artificial. Caravan rehoming is much easier to prevent, and much less artificial IMHO.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited April 06, 2001).]

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by rah on 04-06-2001 08:54 AM Because when you try to rehome a caravan you get a message saying you can't do it. So obviously it was the designers intent to not allow you to do it. RAH

1) About rehoming
I have probably rehomed several thousands caravans since I started playing civ and never noticed such a message. I do with caravans exactly what I do with any other unit: build them somewhere, send them to another city of mine, then push the button 'support from this city'. Seems quite natural.

Obviously, I must be missing something, since so many people seem to think that this is wrong, or sneaky, or kind of a cheat. I'll check to night what my caravan says when I move it.

2) About the designers
Do you think that the designers intended that this game should be played with one city, or several hundreds, or trade routes renewed by sending food caravans in between, or...?

Honestly I feel confused. I am neither tricky, nor sneaky (at least I think so) and I am ready to follow general advice. But I am far from convinced just now.

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 04-06-2001 12:21 PM OK,Dave What do you say about '2 continents' or 'repeated commodity' (I was glad when I discovered those, then I came to Apolyton and noticed that Xin Yu and Adam Smith also had discovered them)? counter to the game? What do you say about Xin Yu's last finding, renewing a trade route by sending a food caravan? counter to the game? What do you say about a horde of 100 crusaders (I think I read that the other day)? Should there be built-in limitations on trade and no speed limit on four legged units?

I'd say all of these fit more in the framework of the game than caravan rehoming. Perhaps we should agree to disagree...

quote: I love this game. I know you love it too. Don't you think we are going to loose something if we act as a board of censors instead of acting as explorers?

As nearly everyone else has said already, what a player does in the privacy of his/her home is entirely his/her affair. There should, however be an agreed-upon code of conduct for multiplayer and comparison games, else the competition is specious.

[Blaupanzer]

La Fayette has stated that he is not an MP warrior elsewhere in the forum. H also hasn't claimed to set any records that I've seen. These rules things only really matter in those contexts.

Most of us rehome units by pressing the "h" key when we get the unit to its new city. That is what generates the message saying this is forbidden for caravans.

The value of caravans is twofold. One is the immediate bonus, and for that La Fayette's reasoning makes as much sense as that of those who disagree with him. However, caravan/freights also start a stream of gold between the two cities based on the commodities available there. In that context, rehoming makes no sense, since the game's logic has said the flow of goods is available from the original city, not the rehomed one.

[Scouse Gits]

I think our friend LaFayette is somewhat embattled here - I'm put in mind of a similar, but far less heated discussion recently about the airbase 'cheat' -- one which I use extensively in the rare games that are still going by the advent of Radio -- here it was I that was in the minority of one - and very glad that the debate did not reach the temperature that this one is attaining.
For MP and succession games I guess some 'standard' would be of general benefit, but otherwise - why bother? solo's achievement is no less remarkable just because it was aided by a particular 'strategy', if LaFayette chooses to try and beat it (using the same strategy) more strength to his right arm -- personally I think that the map was known lent a greater advantage than any ammount of rehoming - but I have yet to land before 1500...

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[rah]

La Fayette
My post was not meant as a jab or an insult. When we started playing MP we rehomed. We kept doing it until during a discussion among the group we played with decided to not allow it in future games.

The only reason I posted was to state that the "can't do" message was an indication that the designers had considered it and decided not to allow it. (in reference to your comment on why any unit but that one)

I pass no judgement. We stopped but in some SP games I'll do it. (unless I going for a challange score to post, where it has been forbidden)

I'm am surprised (I guess I shouldn't be) that you never tried homing it through the drop down menues). Whenever I make assumptions, that happens.

RAH

[Boney]

If you are solo and having fun, do what you want.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by DaveV on 04-06-2001 09:08 AM So, rushbuilding twenty caravans in size-3 cities, rehoming them to your SSC and vastly increasing their trade value is counter to the game's built-in limitations on trade. [This message has been edited by DaveV (edited April 06, 2001).]

OK,Dave
What do you say about '2 continents' or 'repeated commodity' (I was glad when I discovered those, then I came to Apolyton and noticed that Xin Yu and Adam Smith also had discovered them)? counter to the game?
What do you say about Xin Yu's last finding, renewing a trade route by sending a food caravan? counter to the game?
What do you say about a horde of 100 crusaders (I think I read that the other day)? Should there be built-in limitations on trade and no speed limit on four legged units?
I love this game. I know you love it too.
Don't you think we are going to loose something if we act as a board of censors instead of acting as explorers?


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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental