Best Wonders

[Taurus]

Most of the chances are that you already had such a thread.
But being one who doesn't spend much time in the CIV 2 stratagy forum, I wouldn't know.

So, I'm coming to you, as I see that you're a great bunch of Civ Masters (people who have mastered Civ), please guide me, and tell me what wonders do you think are the best ones to build, in which order and why.

My list would be:
1. Hanging Gardens - So I can build many cities, without having happiness porblems.
2. Great Library - So I won't have to research some puny technologies as Warrior Code.
3. Colossus - That's the start of a science city.

Maye Marco Polo's here.

4. Adam Smiths... - It's a great thing for your economy early in the game.
5. Leonardo's... - So I won't have to worry about defense being updated.
6. Mike's chapel - To solve hapiness problems that might occur.

Add here Copernicus' and Isaac's if you have the time and resources to finish that science city.

7. Statue of Liberty - I find it pretty good to change to Fundy in an early stage so I can build Factories ASAP.
8. Darwin's Voyage - So I can quickly get from Railroad to Industrializtion.
9. Hoover Dam - Production.

Maybe UN.

10. J.S Bach's - A good way to get "We love the..." easily.
11. Cure for Cancer - Same as J.S Bach.
12. SETI program - Science goes up.
13. Apollo Program - The final wonder to get a SS going.

So, what wonders do you build?

[Smash]

Depends

Expansion-Gardens and Lighthouse or Pyramids
Scientist-Collosus,Cope's,Sir Ike's
Conquer-War Academy,Leo's,SoL maybe Lighthouse
Popeye-Lighthouse,Magellans
Trump-anything that gives free improvements and Adam Smith.

I have completely abandoned Great Library in solo play.Marco Polo much better.

Once the caravan train is running you can have whatever you want.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Taurus on 03-23-2001 02:58 PM Most of the chances are that you already had such a thread. But being one who doesn't spend much time in the CIV 2 stratagy forum, I wouldn't know.

We had, but that's OK. We may have change our minds in the meantime
These days I often play with only one city, in which case the following wonders are most wanted:

[1] Colossus
[2] Copernicus
[3] Shakespeare
[4] Newton
[5] Apollo (naturally)

Depending on the circumstances, there can be additional priorities such as
Marco Polo, Magellan, Leonardo, United Nations.
Wonders like Hanging Gardens (as your first), Oracle (rare), Darwin (usually easy to get) and Hoover Dam are a nice bonus.


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Rufus T. Firefly]

I'm relatively new at playing Deity/7 civs/raging hordes, and I play a perfectionist space-race game. For me:

Must-Haves
Colossus
Copernicus'
Newton's
Hanging Gardens
Mike's Chapel
Leo's Workshop
Hoover Dam

Highly Desired
Adam Smith's
UN
SETI
Apollo (The AI never beats me to space flight, but if it steals the tech and builds this first, it's no big deal)

Nice to Have
Shakespeare (in the SSC)
Bach's
Cure for Cancer

Other wonders (except ET and MP) are also nice, but tend to distract me from this list.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder
[This message has been edited by Rufus T. Firefly (edited March 24, 2001).]

[Qin Shihuangdi]

I think there are really two different questions...which are one's favorite wonders and which are the best wonders.

Favorite wonders would be based on how much the player likes the benefits the wonder gives regardless of what strategy he or she is playing. They're the ones you want to get *just because*.
My Favorites:
1. Pyramids: Don't have to build granaries and it lasts forever!
2. Manhattan Project: Nuke's Rule!
3. Hoover Dam
4. Great Wall
5. Statue of Liberty

The *best* wonders really depend on the difficulty level and the strategy being employed. For example, the pyramids are great at Chieftain level expansionism, but can cause severe happiness problems on Deity level. Adam Smith's is a must for a civilized expansionist, but almost a non-factor for a player playing a one-city strategy. Sun-Tzu's and Leo's are great for a militaristic player with an aim to conquer the world but essentially pointless for a peaceful player trying to win the space-race. A case can be made for many of the wonders being essential in one strategy and pointless in another. If anything, the science wonders and diplomatic wonders could apply to any strategy, though recently many players have realized being behind in technology makes the AI less vigilant and even use that to their advantage.

[colossus]

The best wonders change with difficulty level, how the game is played(OCC/ICS/perfectionist/warmonger) and whether the game is SP or MP.

Playing SP, deity/raging horde, perfectionist game, the best wonder are:

1.Hanging Garden-arrive early, cheap and vital for keeping order
2.Colossus-arrive early, cheap, powerful and expire late
3.Mike-have it and you can build as many cities as you like
4.Leo-too happy to see those warriors to become musketeers, and is the only way to change NON settlers to NON engineers
5.SOL-have it, swith to fundy and never look back

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Taurus on 03-23-2001 02:58 PM My list would be: 1. Hanging Gardens - So I can build many cities, without having happiness porblems. 2. Great Library - So I won't have to research some puny technologies as Warrior Code. 3. Colossus - That's the start of a science city. Maye Marco Polo's here. 4. Adam Smiths... - It's a great thing for your economy early in the game. 5. Leonardo's... - So I won't have to worry about defense being updated. 6. Mike's chapel - To solve hapiness problems that might occur. Add here Copernicus' and Isaac's if you have the time and resources to finish that science city. 7. Statue of Liberty - I find it pretty good to change to Fundy in an early stage so I can build Factories ASAP. 8. Darwin's Voyage - So I can quickly get from Railroad to Industrializtion. 9. Hoover Dam - Production. Maybe UN. 10. J.S Bach's - A good way to get "We love the..." easily. 11. Cure for Cancer - Same as J.S Bach. 12. SETI program - Science goes up. 13. Apollo Program - The final wonder to get a SS going. ?

Let us say my list would be close to the one sent by Smash.
I prefer to tell you about YOUR list:
1) OK (don't cry if you lose it: Oracle is very much despised on this forum but you can play great games against the AI using it)
2) Try to skip that one (promiss me to play at least one game without it, 'slow thinking' about your tech tree; this should improve your playing technique)
3) OK (remember that you can skip it, using a 'Starving Science City')
3bis) Marco (I used to skip it, in order to be obliged to scout, but the combo 'Marco+some kind of peace = share world maps' is wonderful for early trade)
4) OK (I never build it any longer though, since 8 caravans are very precious to an early trader like me)
5) OK (nice for warriors and settlers, horrible for vet ironclads; I skip it most of the time)
6) OK (I think ICSers skip it; otherwise it is the corner stone of a strong civ; think of it: with 10 cities, you save about 400 gold to start with, then 30 gold/turn; great)
6bis) No sir, it is NOT if you have time and shields left; please skip it only if you get beaten to it after hard fighting (ICSers, OCCers, expansionnists, ..., anybody tries to build some kind of SSC and there are good reasons for that)
7) OK (though created by a frenchman this one has lost much of its sex appeal after oedo)
8) OK (2 techs against 8 caravans; it's up to you; personally I skip it most of the time...but I love trade)
9) OK (cornerstone #2: look at how much you save with 10 cities... and most people have 20 or 40 or more when HD appears)
9bis) UN is very costly compared to MPE, but this is only at first sight: you have become much richer in the meantime (or else you are on your way to loosing that game ). IMO if you are playing conquest, you are very probably commie or fundy and willing to fight, then skip it and buy powerful units (especially vet spies ). If you play AC, you are probably a peaceful demo (or willing to be so), then buy it.
10)OK
11) Not at all 'same as JSB'!
(JSB is much less costly and much more powerful than CFC)
12) SETI is powerful but it appears very late, hence if your SSC is strong it is very often wiser to build one Research Lab and skip SETI (BTW: same with Manufacturing Plants: powerful but costly and very late = take care!)
13) Of course (shouldn't be wise at all to wait until the AI builds it for you).

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Taurus]

Thank you all for your advice, I learned very much.

Another question, should I build wonders with Caravans or just with production and maybe rush buy?

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"But as time goes on, they, as all men, will find that independence was not made for man - that it is an unnatural state - will do for a while, but will not carry us on safely to the end..." Aldous Huxley in "Brave New World"

[DrFell]

Rushbuying caravans is much more economical than rushbuying the wonder itself... cost for a wonder is 4x number of shields, whereas for a caravan it is much cheaper, therefore rushbuying a wonder is very wasteful.

[Ribannah]

Actually, that is not always true:

[A] If your caravans contain demanded commodities, it may be more profitable to send them to the demanding cities and rush-build that wonder.

[B] On other occasions it is better to have that wonder the next turn instead of waiting for the caravans to be completed (and arrive), despite the immediate costs.

Also, if your (single) city produces over 25 shields, (slow-) building the wonder is always better than producing caravans.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire
[This message has been edited by Ribannah (edited March 26, 2001).]

[Ming]

I like a combination of both approaches. If I have a trade good that I know is worth a lot if I "can" get some place quick, I'll take the money and beakers. And I use the "worthless" caravans to build the wonder

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Taurus on 03-26-2001 03:37 PM should I build wonders with Caravans or just with production and maybe rush buy?

1) As a general rule: build with caravans (thank you DrFell).
2) Almost any rule has exceptions (thank you Rib).

Rib left unmentioned another exception, that I consider very important in the early game:
what do you do when you would be happy to get your first wonder and you have not discovered Trade yet?
Here are 2 strategies:
1) Run for the wonder (start building it in your city #1 or #2, feed that city, help it grow, disband units, ...).
2) Run for Trade (choose it as goal #2, immediately after Monarchy, and do your best to tip huts and/or max your early science).
Personally I love playing #2 (because it's part of the fun, just like coloring black terrain or tipping huts), but I suppose it might be like commiting suicide to use it in MP.

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[Ming]

For building those early wonders... I sometimes build diplos as "poor man" caravans. I send them to the city building the wonder and disband them.
Also, before I have writing... If I find myself not really needing to build anything (waiting for food to catch up to build another settler)I might even build a barracks or two just to disband them for the money...

[colossus]

Writing is important for the rushbuy of caravans.

Because rushbuy stepwise is cheaper(rushbuy caravan via warrior-phalanx-diplomat-settler-caravan is much cheaper than directly rushbuying caravan), having diplomat available serve as the 'chain' to reduce the costs. This is important in early game when you have few cities and few golds to spare.

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by colossus on 03-28-2001 01:39 AM Writing is important for the rushbuy of caravans. Because rushbuy stepwise is cheaper(rushbuy caravan via warrior-phalanx-diplomat-settler-caravan is much cheaper than directly rushbuying caravan), having diplomat available serve as the 'chain' to reduce the costs. This is important in early game when you have few cities and few golds to spare.

While the above statement is true...... if you go hut tipping you almost always come across Warrior Code thus making the use of dips in this scenario redundant. Even worse is the WC before BW thus making it annoying to rushbuy as you have warrior. .. gap... dip/archers..... settlers