The "Size-5" strategy

[Xin Yu]

Maud'Dib:

1) I really don't know what happend to your game. You only have a pop drop if all of the following are true:

a) food box is empty (upper-right corner of city screen)
b) have a food deficit (top line of middle block of city screen shows some bushels in shadow)
c) do not support settlers (settlers are disbanded before pop drops)

2) and 3): they are irrelavent to the strategy. Techs from huts always slow you down, and terrain always have an impact on resources, regardless what strategy you use.

[Paul]

I don't have that much MP experience, but I believe that in 2x production only the basic terrain production is doubled. The extra production from roads, mines, rivers etc. is not doubled.

[Mercantile]

In my game with Ming and others, i tried out this size five strat Xin, and it worked well enough for one of the players to comment on the chat with kings " i believe we have a student of Xin's strategy"

Thankyou for making this game easier for me

[Ming]

It is a great strategy when used properly.
I will admit that I only use it selectively, when it makes sense... but man... it really gives you a bump in science.
[This message has been edited by Ming (edited October 06, 2000).]

[DaveV]

quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith on 09-10-2000 01:13 AM No matter how careful you are you will, I repeat WILL, screw up and forget to turn some of the cities back to food production, thereby losing a population point.

I've finally tried this in my AI headstart scenario, and I have to say AS is right. The consequences of inattention are severe: your city drops to size 4 (with an empty food box), and you have to spend another settler building it back up to size 5. I've had it happen 3 times so far .

But the science boost is worth the tedium. Works especially well for a sleazer (not that I know any ).

[KaiserIsak]

I just tried this strat. on a deity game, and i invented monarchy before i got a 5 city. Seems like the strat is too slow for me.

[cavebear]

I've been trying out the size-5 strategy against the AI (no confident enough with it against human players). It *is* difficult in some ways, though I've always been a micro-manager). Still, I like some of the results, and I will continue to learn more about doing it properly.

Mostly, I find my perceptions about how I *should* advance at odds with the way the Size-5 strategy works (and I attribute the dissonance to myself, not the strategy).

My guess is that a lot depends on each player's expectations, goals, and style. As a builder, I like the idea. It just takes a lot of practice to master. If it gets me to where I want to be in a game faster than other strategies, I will use it.

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[Matthew]

Dag nab, just saw this one. I kind of hope they fix the food box thing in Civ III. Seems to me that if there is less food than required people should start to die.

I did do something similar to this long ago in an MP 2x1x game when the barbs got my capital. I didn't even have Monarchy yet. The one resource I had was food. Virtually all shields and trade went to corruption. But food I had enough of. I hurriedly got 4 cities to size 5, and made 3 scientists in each. I got Monarchy and managed to stay in the game. Wish I would have known about the food box thing back then.

This is a great find, but it certainly is not omnipotent.

1. Shields are worth anywhere from 2 to 4 gold, depening on what they're used for. A size 5 city, which would produce 16 gold, could also be producing 7 shields, along with gold, science, and food for growth.

2. I imagine that this is most effective early on when rushing for some wonder, and the limiting factor is who gets the tech first. Otherwise the offset to growth is probably substantial.

3. Unless you must have a certain tech first, no tech is worth mone than about 30 shields.

4. I can make a caravan from a size 5 city in 7 turns. I can often get 300 gold and science from that caravan.

Having said that, I at least am comforted to feel that civ as I know it is not gone. just changed somewhat. I look foreward to implementing this little tactic in the future. Great job, Xin.

I still hope they fix the food box thing. And keep the Camel in civ III.

SAVE THE CAMEL !!!!!

[Rasputin]

for us newbies..

This strategy obviously is to research as fast as possible and get advanced techs. But what about defences.. If Barbs attack early or other Civ discovers you what do you do then? too late to start building defenders then! Am i missing some secret ingrediant for keeping the enemy away from citys...????

[La Fayette]

Rasputin
Bribing back (1 dip and some gold needed, but a city that has been yours before is half price).
The loss of a city is painful mainly when it is feeding settlers or maintaining many improvements.

[Stuff2]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 09-11-2000 11:46 AM Thanks everybody for your support. Now please answer this poll: size-5 vs ICS, who will be ahead?

Wouldn't a mix of the two be even a greater strategy? half of your cities producing only settlers and the other half generating science or cash or whatever you want them to generate.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 09-14-2000 01:47 PM Some notes: Just as 5 scientists can give you 16 science bulbs, 5 taxmen can give you 16 golds. The effect increases when you build city improvements. This is very useful when you are rushing for a wonder. You can have some cities build caravans, and others hire taxmen (stop scientific research for a while), and use tax money to rush buy caravans. One food caravan can supply a city enough food for 5 turns. Using this, in later stage of the game, you can push the above strategy to its limit -- in a big city hire 16 scientists or taxmen (with corresponding city improvements), and use food caravans to keep them work there forever. Suppose you have a size 20 city and build marketplace, bank, and stock exchange. Hire 16 taxmen will give you 120 gold per turn (suppose the other 4 citizens can provide enough gold for the maintainance). Spend 125 gold every 5 turns for buying a food caravan, you net 95 gold per turn, enough to buy 30+ shield of production, only without any happiness and pollution problem. The ultimate parctice is to use food caravans to increase SSC's population to 36, and hire 16 scientists, then use food caravans to support the food consumption.

This is almost exactly the equivalent of the "Starving Silicon City" that I described a few weeks ago. I bow.
(the fun of it is that Xin Yu also chose a city size 20 to develop his example)
(for those interested, I mention a tiny mistake: "one food caravan can supply a city enough food for 5 turns". This is true only for a city producing no food at all by itself).

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[Xin Yu]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 09-14-2000 01:47 PM One food caravan can supply a city enough food for 5 turns.

This has considered the food produced by the city itself. For example, a size 20 city consumpts 20*2=40 food each turn, or 200 food in 5 turns. A food caravan will fill half of the food box, or 21*5=105 food. The city itself must produce 95 food in 5 turns, or 19 food each turn to make up the difference -- needs 4 people working on farmland (plus the city square itself).

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Xin Yu on 03-09-2001 12:43 PM This has considered the food produced by the city itself. For example, a size 20 city consumpts 20*2=40 food each turn, or 200 food in 5 turns. A food caravan will fill half of the food box, or 21*5=105 food. The city itself must produce 95 food in 5 turns, or 19 food each turn to make up the difference -- needs 4 people working on farmland (plus the city square itself).

I agree with your example and your calculations, which show that 1 caravan feeding 1 city in 5 turns is possible.
Still, this is not always true (in fact, the number of caravans required depend upon how much food the city itself produces). Example (city size 20, consuming 40 food/turn):
1) City produces 0 food = 1 caravan (105 food) needed every 105/40=2,625 turn.
2) City produces 10 food/turn = 1 caravan needed every 105/(40-10)=3,5 turn.
3) City produces 19 food/turn = 1 caravan needed every 105/(40-19)=5 turn.
4) City produces 30 food/turn = 1 caravan needed every 105/(40-30)10,5 turn 5) City produces 40 food/turn = no caravan needed (no deficit)

[Xin Yu]

After writing several scenario strategies, suddenly I find that some elements of the size-5 strategy are very useful in playing scenarios. In a scenario, the player usually already has several cities, or can occupy several cities very quickly. This makes the size-5 strategy more attractive, for the following reasons:

Some scenarios require the player to research certain techs for better units. The faster the research, the better. Changing all citizens to scientists will boost the research and give the player access to better units, which in turn will let the player occupy enemy cities faster. Example: Imperial Rome, Red Front.

Some scenarios do not allow advanced government types. By changing some citizens to taxmen or scientists, the riot factor associated with number of cities will disappear, and the bribe/waste associated with early government type will diminish. Example: Mongols.

Hence, for a lot of scenarios, a great strategy applies:
1)at the beginning, hire all citizens as scientists (build food caravans or settlers to add to small cities and grow them to size 5 if necessary) and research a better weapon;
2)change scientists to taxmen after the new weapon tech is researched, meanwhile sell city improvements in cities to finance your production;
3)rush buy new weapons;
4)attack nearby cities using the new weapon;
5)Sell city improvements in newly occupied cities and hire its citizens as taxmen;
6)rush buy more new weapons;
7)go for wonder cities first to reduce cost and unhappiness.