AC in BC with OC

[solo]

Well, it looks like my little theory about delaying invention is not as effective as it first seemed. The assumptions that led to my idea of a technique to delay invention were:

1) No tech can come from a hut until its prerequisites have been established, for example, invention can never come before engineering. This was verified by all my tests and game experience.

2) Given the tendency of this game to deny what you want, I experimented on the assumption that the tech you were currently studying was less likely to come from a hut than the others currently eligible. Not impossible, just somewhat less likely. This idea seemed to be confirmed by my experience in the game I described in the “no parts” topic, in which I deliberately researched invention, and came away with almost all the tech available from huts. This also tends to be my impression I am getting while playing the game, too, you don't often get from a hut the thing you are currently studying.


My technique was to expand this delaying tactic, by studying techs that preceded invention in the tech tree, the ones that had to be known before invention became eligible. I figured a little delay at each step along the way would accumulate into a big delay of the appearance of invention. It worked just like that in my game above. Below is a summary of techs received from huts, in the order they arrived. The ones in parentheses are the ones I was trying to “learn”. Each line marks a separate game turn.

alphabet
ceremonial burial, bronze working
mysticism, pottery, map making, ROME (horseback riding)
currency
masonry, seafaring, code of laws
mathematics, trade, astronomy, construction
warrior code, writing, horseback riding
(wheel) iron working
monarchy, feudalism, literacy, bridge building
chivalry, navigation
wheel
philosophy, republic, polytheism, physics
banking
(medicine)
magnetism, university
medicine(free via philosophy)
(engineering)
chemistry, theory of gravity
economics
monotheism, theology, atomic theory
engineering, invention

and only sanitation is left, which needs engineering as a prerequisite. Notice how the delays worked so nicely, long enough for all the other techs to roll in. Also notice that whenever philosophy appears, it is better to pick something you really need, rather than one of the delayers. After the freebie, it’s back to delaying tactics.


I tried another experimental game, to test the technique again. Here it is:

alphabet, horseback riding
ROME (wheel)
map making, masonry
pottery, warrior code, seafaring, mathematics, wheel,
(bronze working) writing, bronze working
(currency) ceremonial burial, iron working
code of laws, literacy, monarchy
mysticism, feudalism, astronomy, chivalry, currency
(construction) polytheism
navigation, trade, philosophy
construction (free via philosophy)
(engineering)
university, republic, medicine, monotheism
physics, theology
magnetism, banking, theory of gravity
atomic theory, bridge building, chemistry
economics, engineering
(invention) invention

Again, only sanitation was left. The technique worked like a charm, again. Note how especially effective engineering was as a delayer. An early experimental game I did not record also worked out this way, giving me everything except sanitation.


So just to be sure, I tried again:

alphabet
pottery, ROME (horseback riding)
map making, bronze working, horseback riding, masonry
(wheel)
mathematics
seafaring, wheel
(currency) warrior code
iron working, currency, writing
(construction) ceremonial burial, code of laws
trade, literacy, mysticism, polytheism
monarchy, philosophy
construction (free via philosophy)
(engineering) medicine, university
astronomy, bridge building, monotheism, theory of gravity
chemistry, engineering
(invention) invention

Oops, I’m still missing 10 techs, and the delays were not as effective this game, either.

So much for this technique. Anyone out there have a good recipe for crow that they could email to me!


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It is more pleasant to live in the corner of a housetop,
than in a wide house with a brawling woman.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited February 19, 2001).]

[Ribannah]

Solo, missing 10 techs is still better than average. There are only 11 prerequisites for Invention, after all, as opposed to 14 for Magnetism and 17 for Economics, etc.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[arii]

From my experience I often get the tech I am researching from a hutt when researching alphabet, writing and litteracy. Anybody feels that way?

[rah]

The one that i get most often when researching it, is code of law. Go figure.

RAH
Probably random. (of course we thought that about odeo years too)

[solo]

Arii & rah

My experience too, with alphabet, writing, literacy, code of laws and even horseback riding, but less often with other techs, like monarchy, or especially with engineering in my tests, so go figure why. It may have something to do with preserving the balance of tech categories among eligible hut candidates. I still don't think it is totally random, and believe that some sort of weighting of the probabilities is going on.

I have also noticed that techs from huts often come in pairs, such as chivalry soon after feudalism, or theology quickly after monotheism. Has anyone else noticed this?

Arii, I did email you the scenario as you requested, and hope you got it. If not, just download the .sav from OCC #23 and convert to a scenario, which is what I did.


All others

I have added my game notes and many comments to the log of my game above, which has been edited to include them.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited February 19, 2001).]

[Ribannah]

I just got ALL the pre-invention tech in #1 . Horseback Riding came quickly from a hut, but we kept our next research on The Wheel until there was little else left.
Theology immediately following Montheism etc. sounds familiar, what I do when I get a tech on the path to Invention is to seek out a hut on grassland next, to increase the chance that I get a unit instead of a tech. The next tech form a hut seems more random if there are other results in between.
There's yet another trick I use that may be helping, I will tell you about it later in order not to spoil your choice of general strategy for playing #1


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

quote: Originally posted by arii on 02-17-2001 10:50 AM I also created a map to see how early I could land. It is a small map with 5 identical continents that each have 21 trade ressources. Each civ starts in a SSC spot that has 2 gold 2 spices and 12 river squarres. I removed the hutts.

arii

After making my map, I realized a city site with 4 gold is possible by varying the resource seed, which is even richer in trade. However, 2 spice worked out well enough for my purposes.

Ribannah

I'm not planning on trying river1.scn, because I was able to land without the spies or engineers, but would appreciate knowing what it is that you discovered so I could test it out, too. Don't let any cynics spoil your day, either. I believe the wheel thing happened, because I got similar result with engineering a few times, without using your refinements to the technique.

In river2, I kind of forgot to protect my city and lost it to the Zulus, so may give it another try. I think you got off to a better start, anyways. Democracy and size 21 by 1 A.D. is hard to do. Were you still using the 2 wine?

[La Fayette]

I think you people are playing on AC, while I almost desperately try to conquer the Mediterranean...(don't cry, it's my pleasure for the time being).
But, Solo, when reading your log I find 110 huts tipped before 3000 BC.
I didn't even imagin there might be 110 huts on a map...
WoW!

[Paul]

You really need a large map with all rivers to get that many huts before 3000 BC. Don't expect to come anywhere near that on a normal map.

[solo]

The map was 10,000 tiles, the maximum size that can be made with the MGE map editor, and with no oceans covering half the huts as in a "normal" map, and with rivers tripling normal movement, the distortion is magnified even more. Fun to try a few times to explore the potential, and still a challenge to land before AD in spite of the huge advantage given the player by all those huts and ideal city sites.

[East Street Trader]

Smashing log, Solo. The commentary and explanations are helpful and insightful.

And to hell with worrying about the odd correction. You've done this to share your insights with us, not to win some trivial boasting competition.

I've loved reading the other contributions in the thread too.

But one little wail of anguish.

We are starting to know too much about huts. I thrive on all the other knowledge which has built up here, ancient and modern. I have no problem making use of an edge from understanding combat better or eliminating a period of anarchy thanks to oedo's law. But there was always that little frisson in finding, and then opening a hut. I think I liked what I thought was the genuinely random nature of what huts added to the game.

But, then, you cannot hold back the advance of science.
Try as I might not to do so I have now recognised the hut pattern. And I know I'm going to give your trick a run out, Solo.

Ah me.

For what it's worth I think my experience supports your idea. Like others, I do get advances from a hut while I am researching them. But that is rare enough to make me think that there is something in the programming which make that less likely than that other advances will pop out. I even have an instinct that there may be an edge given to different classes of advance (although I cannot make that work by reference to what happened in your games). The reason I say that is that I often play quite a few games one after the other on maps generated on the same settings, playing the same colour civ and pursuing the same tech path. Once or twice I've felt strongly that there has been a pattern about the advances coming out of huts. For example, not long back I spent about a month getting Warrior Code and always Warrior Code as the first advance. I made no note, but your proposition makes me think I may have been in the process of researching the self same advance each and every time and, because of the similarity in maps/civ etc. I may also have had very similar existing knowledge each time.

Anyway, well done with the game. I suppose I agree with you that arii's effort stands as the most awesome of the fast finish achievements. But your posts in this thread are outstanding themselves for the care, and obvious pleasure, you have taken in sharing your experience and thoughts with us all. I have copied the thread and know that I will read over what you have said more than once so as to benefit from the depth and excellence of the insights afforded. Thank you and congratulations indeed.

[solo]

East Side Trader,

I think chance comes much more into play in regard to huts in a regular game, where there are so many less. Early exploration has always been my favorite part of the game, where I try to use a diplomat and trireme hopefully adding a bribed barbarian horseman to the team somewhere along the way.

There is a definite hut and special resources pattern, but both can be altered by changing the resource seed, which is done each game in computer generated maps. For example, notice how in some games a city can share four identical specials (e.g. 4 whales), and in others this does not occur. The hut pattern changes, too, so why bother with it? I enjoy the surprise of bumping into huts more than gaining a slight advantage by knowing the various patterns.

In one series of practice games, using the same start, I kept getting writing from huts, maybe because I always picked and learned alphabet first. But, not every time, so although the probabilities seem weighted, there is always some element of chance. This is one of the features built into the game that makes it so enjoyable. If events were too predictable, it would get a little boring. I've discovered that I can never be 100% sure about anything, except for the AI knack of always immediately finding and sinking my fully loaded transports in remote oceans.

Thankyou for the positive feedback, too! What I like so much about this site is the way everyone enjoys sharing things they have done or discovered about the game. My thanks to the many who devote so many hours researching different aspects of the game, because it is tedious work, from which I've gained a lot of useful tips. I know I'd rather just be playing.

[Ribannah]

Just landed on Alpha Centauri in 514 BC with Paul's first variation on OCC#23 (with huts). Take a seat

================================================== ==============
AC: -514

Monarchy: -
Republic: -3650
Democracy: -3250

Colossus: -3350
Copernicus: -3050
Shakespeare: -3250
Newton: -2950
Leonardo: -2600
Darwin: -1850
Hoover: -1550
SETI: -1350
Apollo: -1100

Trade routes: -2400, -1950, -1800

Size 12: -3150
Size 21: -2550
Size 35: -1150

Trade: -3650
Construction: -3600
Sanitation: -3450
Refrigeration: -2350

Automobile: -1800
Computers: -1400
Space Flight: -1150
============================================

-4000 N-Archers, N-Horsemen, 50
-3950 2 N-Chariot, 4 N-Horsemen, N-Archers, 25
-3900 starting to transform city square into hills
----- 4 N-Archers, 2x50, N-Horsemen, 25
-3850 3 N-Archers, 2x50, Masonry, Pottery, N-Chariot
-3800 starting to mine the city square
----- 5 N-Archers, 3 N-Chariot, Alphabet, Writing, 3x50, N-Horsemen, 100, Map Making
----- Rome (2 gold, 2 wine), di N-Archers, researching Horseback Riding
-3750 Settlers, 50, Code of Laws, Literacy, 50, Barb Horsemen-bribed->N
-3700 Settlers, 2 Settlers join Rome -> S3
----- 5x50, Mathematics, N-Chariot, Horseback Riding , Barb Horsemen-killed
----- The Republic , N-Horsemen, Seafaring, 25, Bronze Working, Revolution
-3650 Library, REPUBLIC, wine mined, di N-Archers
----- Warrior Code, Chariot, Ceremonial Burial, Currency, Iron Working
----- Barb Horsemen-killed, N-Chariot, N-Horsemen, Trade, researching The Wheel
-3600 Temple, We Love , Aztecs, Peace, 16 techs->Az, Ally , Embassy, di N-Archers
----- 3 N-Horsemen, 2 N-Legion, 3x50, Banking, Monarchy, Construction, 25, Mysticism
-3550 MarketPlace, S4, di N-Archers
----- Philosophy, 3 N-Legion, 2 N-Horsemen, Medicine, Polytheism , University
----- The Wheel , 4x50, Monotheism , Astronomy, Theory of Gravity, Bridge Building
----- Americans, Vikings, Carthagians, Peace, gave all 28 tech, no Allies
----- - 3x "mighty armies" , Carthagians send Spy home
-3500 Bank, S5, di N-Archers
----- N-Crusaders, 2 N-Legion, 4x50, 25, Navigation, Physics, Atomic Theory, Chemistry
----- Economics, Engineering, Feudalism, Magnetism
-3450 Stock Exchange, S6, wine mined, di N-Archers, 7x50, Chivalry, Sanitation, 3 N-Legion
----- Barb Horsemen-killed, Theology, Invention, N-Crusaders, 25
-3400 Colosseum, S7, di N-Archers
----- 9x50, 4 N-Legion, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, N-Crusaders, 100
-3350 COLOSSUS, S8, city square mined, di Chariot
----- 3 N-Crusaders, 3 N-Legion, 25, 2x50, Barb Horsemen-killed
-3300 Aqueduct, S9, di N-Legion, sold Colosseum
----- 5 N-Crusaders, 11x50, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 4 N-Legion, 25
----- Zulus, Peace, 41 techs->Z, no Ally
-3250 SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE, Democracy (<-Phi), DEMOCRACY, S10, di N-Archers
----- 7x50, Barb Horsemen-killed, 4 N-Crusaders, 4 N-Legion
----- 26 techs->Az, 1 tech->Z, 14 techs->V,Am,C
-3200 University, S11, Embassy(C), di N-Archers
----- 7x50, 2 N-Legion, 4 N-Crusaders, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 100
-3150 Hides, S12, di N-Archers, 10x50, 3 N-Crusaders, N-Legion, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 100
-3100 Sewer System, S13, gold mined, di 2 Legions, di 4 Archers
----- 8x50, 2 Barb Horsemen-killed, 3x25, 3 N-Legion, 3 N-Crusaders
----- Mongols, Peace, 42 techs->M, no Ally
-3050 COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY, S14, di N-Legion
----- 2 N-Crusaders, 9x50, Barb Horsemen-killed, 25, 100, Barb Horsemen-bribed-N
-3000 Hides, S15, Embassy(V), di N-Chariot, di N-Crusaders, di 3 N-Legions
----- 2 N-Legion, 2x25, 4 N-Crusaders, 50
-2950 ISAAC NEWTON'S COLLEGE, S16, di N-Crusaders, 4x50, 2 N-Crusaders, 2x25, Barb Horsemen-killed, 100
-2900 Hides, Gunpowder, S17, di N-Crusaders, 5x50
-2850 Silver, S18, Embassy(Z), di N-Crusaders, 3x50, N-Musketeers, N-Crusaders
-2800 Hides, S19, di N-Legion, N-Musketeers, 50, Barb Horsemen-killed, N-Crusaders, 25
-2750 Wine, Explosives, We Love ends (needed the beakers), N-Musketeers
-2700 Gold, Embassy(Am), di N-Legion
-2650 Food, We Love , Embassy(M), di 9 N-Legions
-2600 LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP, Metallurgy, S20, di N-Crusaders
-2550 Food, S21, 3 techs->all
-2500 Food, S22, di N-Crusaders
-2450 Food, Electricity, S23, di N-Crusaders
-2400 Food, S24, Hides to Washington (d,400), di N-Crusaders
-2350 Hides, S25, Refrigeration, di N-Crusaders
-2300 Supermarket, We Love ends , di N-Crusaders
-2250 Hides, Steam Engine, Hides to Washington (d,418), di N-Crusaders
-2200 Hides, We Love , di N-Crusaders
-2150 Hides, Railroad, S26, Hides to Washington (d,279), 4 techs->all, di N-Crusaders, bribed Az->N Settlers
-2100 Hides, S27, di N-Crusaders
-2050 Hides, Industrialization, S28, Hides to Washington (d,284)
-2000 Hides, S29, di N-Crusaders
-1950 Hides, The Corporation, We Love ends , Wine to New York (d,552), di N-Crusaders
-1900 Hides, Refining, 3 techs->all, di 4 N-Crusaders
-1850 DARWIN'S VOYAGE -> Steel, Combustion, di N-Crusaders
-1800 Hides, Automobile, 3 techs->all, Silver to Carthage (238), di N-Crusaders
-1750 Superhighways, Electronics, Hides to Tenochtitlan (d,768), di N-Crusaders
-1700 Hides, Mass Production, We Love , Hides to New York (d,902), di 2 N-Crusaders
-1650 Mass Transit, Conscription, S30, 3 techs->all, Hides to Washington (438), di 4 N-Crusaders
-1600 Factory, Leadership, S31, Hides to Washington (445), di 8 N-Crusaders, di 2 N-Musketeers
-1550 HOOVER DAM, Tactics, S32, Gold to Zimbabwe (564), di N-Musketeers
-1500 Hides, Machine Tools, S33, 3 techs->all, Hides to Zimbabwe (573), di N-Musketeers, br Barb Cannon
-1450 Hides, Miniaturization, S34, Hides to Zimbabwe (573), di N-Musketeers
-1400 Hides, Computers, We Love ends , di Cannon, di 3 Crusaders, di 5 Knights
-1350 SETI PROGRAM, Flight, 3 techs->all, Hides to Zimbabwe (317), di N-Musketeers
-1300 Hides, Radio, Hides to Zimbabwe (334), di N-Musketeers
-1250 Hides, Advanced Flight, Hides to Zimbabwe (340), di N-Musketeers
-1200 Hides, Rocketry, We Love , 3 techs->all, Hides to Zimbabwe (351), di N-Musketeers
-1150 Silver, Space Flight, S35, sold Sewer System, di N-Musketeers
-1100 APOLLO PROGRAM, Plastics - we make 41 shields and have 682 gold - sold Aqueduct
-1050 S#01, Nuclear Fission, Hides to Zimbabwe (362), 3 techs->all - 44 shields
-1000 S#02, Nuclear Power, di N-Musketeers, di N-Knights - 45 shields - Americans: Mobile Warfare
-975 S#03, Hides to Zimbabwe (362), br 3 Barb Musketeers, br Barb Cannon
-950 S#04, The Laser, Hides to Zimbabwe (362)
-925 S#05, Superconductor, Hides to Zimbabwe (362) - 48 shields - di Cannon, di Musketeers
-900 S#06, Hides to Zimbabwe (362), br Barb Cannon, di Musketeers, di N-Knights, Zulus sneak attack & lose Crusaders
-875 S#07, Hides to Zimbabwe (362) - 52 shields - di Cannon
-850 S#08, Hides to Zimbabwe (345)
-825 S#09, Hides to Zimbabwe (362)
-800 S#10, Hides to Zimbabwe (368), traded for Mobile Warfare(Am), 2 techs->Am, Peace(Z), 4 techs->Z,V,Az,C,M
-775 S#11, Fusion Power
-750 S#12, grassland/r into hills/r, mined - 60 shields, di Musketeers
-725 S#13, Robotics, di N-Knights
-700 S#14, di N-Knights
-675 S#15, Recycling, di N-Knights
-650 C#01, 3 techs->all, di N-Knights
-625 C#02, Environmentalism, di N-Knights
-600 M#01, bribed American Armor , di N-Knights
-575 M#02
-550 LAUNCH 15-1-1-1-1-1, bribed second American Armor , the rest was easy
-514 ALPHA CENTAURI

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

Very impressive, Ribannah!

You got lucky with Republic at 3650, but that was a neat trick to an early size 3, by joining settlers, an idea I would have tried if I had thought of it.

That was a great run out of wheel, too, and I'd appreciate knowing anything new you tried that might have contributed to its longevity.

Also, how did you manage to "discover" democracy exactly at 3250? Does setting science to zero until just before the "o" year arrives delay the free advance due to philosophy?

I see that you also like to get rid of legions (nifty 20 shield disbanders) just before they are demoted to less costly musketeers with Leonardo's!

Your approach was quite different than mine, as you concentrated more on building up shield production and gold revenues early, and started caravans and trade later. I was not able to build the crucial wonders as quickly as you, and you were a few turns quicker to that first earned advanced. Did pollution give you any trouble? I deliberately kept my shields low to avoid it.

Now I wonder how your approach would compare with mine if you were to try OCC #23 again without the spies and engineers.

Again, very well done, just about the perfect game.

[Paul]

Yes, setting science to zero will delay the free advance when you get philosophy from a hut. I am also playing the river1.scn at the moment and I had also thought of the size-one settler trick to get an early size-three city. I got engineering a bit sooner than I had hoped, but I was lucky after that, because I still got quite a lot of other advances before invention showed up. But I didn't get republic as early as Ribannah, so I had to wait an extra 4 turns to start celebrating. I also didn't get hides as an option for caravans, so I will probably not be able to get to AC quite as fast. I should probably try this again at the two wine & two gold site.