AC in BC with OC

[solo]

Just landed in 14 B.C. by converting OCC #23 to a scenario! Am wiped, but will post a log tomorrow in this thread.

[Ribannah]

Told you so

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Scouse Gits]

Brilliant!
----------
SG(2)

[Theben]

I hate you.

[solo]

(I have edited this entry to make a few corrections and to add my game notes to the log of the game, in which I relate my strategies and other irrelevant and boring details.)

To purists, this game will not count. It uses a map especially designed for accelerated starts. I am still totally in awe of Arii’s remarkable game, where he was able to land so early with a game-generated map and without the benefit of a distorted start. This game also violates some OCC guidelines for comparison games, namely:

1) This game was not a first try on this map. It represents the culmination of experience gathered in several previous failed attempts.

2) This conferred the advantage of knowing where the AI were likely to hang out each game, plus the unavoidable knowledge of the exact location of many of the huts on the map. However, the homogeneous nature of the map, plus the lack of ocean and plentiful supply of huts, limited the extent of this advantage.

3) In comparison games we must live with our mistakes. In this game, I freely admit to “correcting” major blunders due to carelessness or miscalculations. Civ II games take an enormous investment of time. To have one spoiled just because I forgot to complete one build before starting the next turn, or because I miscounted beakers and just missed an advance that was possible with more careful Einstein manipulations, does not seem fair. I wanted to see what I could do with my best strategy and effort, and felt incapable of playing a complete game without making a few dumb mistakes, so I took this liberty.


However, I refrained from “correcting” outcomes that should be due to chance, such as unwanted hut results or the appearance of pollution or barbarians, though I used any and all legitimate ways to lessen the chances of “bad luck”. Let me illustrate this distinction with some examples:

1) Suppose, on the first try, a barbarian comes from a hut. That‘s life. It is reprehensible to reload the game and try for a more favorable result. However it’s perfectly legitimate to use Ribannah’s tip to explore around a hut before you open it, to lessen the probability of a barbarian outcome. The technique works. Thanks Ribannah!

2) Suppose you were not aware of Oedo’s xxxo tip. Again, after deciding to revolt, it’s reprehensible to reload a game and try your revolution at a later time, hoping for less anarchy. However, most players have no qualms about exploiting the knowledge of xxxo. Thanks again, Oedo!


In fact, the sleuthing and use of such information is one of the things that make this game so much fun to investigate and play. It’s like trying to break a secret code. My biggest problem to solve in this game was finding a reliable way to delay the appearance of invention from a hut, because I felt I needed every tech available from huts to have a chance to land before 1 A.D. The technique I discovered worked like a charm, and I will describe it in a later post. Without it, the problem of invention coming too early seemed insurmountable. To me, it’s always more satisfying to find a way of reducing the role played by luck in the outcome of a game, rather than by having a good result just because I was lucky.


Playing the game as a scenario conferred another significant advantage: research could proceed in any order, because in a scenario you are never presented with those short lists of undesired advances from which to make a selection, which are so prevalent regular games. However, there was no choice but to use a scenario, because spaceship parts are not available before 1 A.D. in the regular game. Other than that, my start was just the same as the one presented in OCC #23. While creating my scenario, I resisted the temptation to start myself off with say: 20,000 gold, 10 spies, 16 engineers, or any other advantage available from the cheat menu. After all, I wanted to give Theben a reason to hate me as much as possible!

Enough said. The game log follows:

>My initial explorations exploit my previous tries with this map a little. I tried to explore in areas away from the AI first, in order to get fewer units out of huts attached to Rome later.

3950 hut: horseman
3900 hut: archer
3850 4 huts: 100g, horseman, archer, alphabet
3800 hut: archer
3750 2 huts: ceremonial burial, bronze working
3700 hut: horseman
3650 6 huts: 4 horsemen, chariot, 50g
3600 4 huts: 2 chariots, 2 archers
3550 4 huts: mysticism, 50g, pottery, map making, Rome founded using site with 2 spice and 2 gold

>I think the only other viable site is 2 wine and 2 gold, but spice gives 4 extra food for city growth and was a little closer to the starting position of the settlers. This site never generated more than 11 shields, but 10 was all I needed to finish off the last row when rush-buying caravans. I had no time to be building mines. I would like to delay Rome 5 more turns to get a bigger army, but need to reach size 3 at or before 2500 B.C., hopefully producing another settler on the way, to help irrigate.

3500 4 huts: 50g, 2 archers, currency
3450 granary, 7 huts: 100g, masonry, seafaring, 2 horsemen, code of laws
3400 11 huts: mathematics, 100g, trade, astronomy, 4 barbarians, construction, archer

>Throughout the game, I started every build by disbanding a unit, and would rush-buy each build with gold or extra units that I could spare. I was unable to get enough units back to Rome to do this on years 3500, 3400, 3300, and 3200, missing 4 chances. After getting trade early, I abandoned my extra settler idea and jumped at the chance to build the first of many hides caravans. My plan was to make as many commodity caravans as possible as early as possible, and to work the repeating hides trick for all it was worth. When nothing else was essential, I was devoted to making hides.

3350 hides, 5 huts: warrior code, chariot, writing, horseback riding, 50g
3300 6 huts: iron working, 2 barbarians, horseman, legion
3250 hides, 12 huts: monarchy, 2 legions, feudalism, horseman, literacy, 50g, barbarian, chariot, bridge building
Aztecs: peace, share maps, give tech
3200 5 huts: chivalry, 75g, navigation, knight
Mongols: peace, share maps, give tech

>Now I am getting a steady stream of units arriving in Rome and can rush-buy every turn. First to head back from hut tipping duty were the 4 or 5 that came out of huts with the Rome nametag.

3150 hides, 9 huts: 5 barbarians, legion, wheel, knight
3100 hides, 10 huts: philosophy, republic, 3 barbarians, polytheism, physics, legion, 75g
3050 hides, 10 huts: 3 barbarians, 150g, 2 legions, banking, knight
revolution, government to Monarchy
Carthaginians: peace, share maps, give tech, 50g tribute

>I did not go to Republic yet, because I was still size 2, and I did not want to go into a shield deficit supporting units from huts attached to Rome. Monarchy was best suited for the present situation.

3000 temple, 7 huts: 150g, knight, magnetism, university, legion
Zulus: peace, share maps, give tech
2950 diplomat, medicine (free due to philosophy),
7 huts: 3 barbarians, 100g, chemistry, theory of gravity
Americans: peace, share maps, give tech, 50g tribute

>Often needed to disband the last military unit in Rome to finance a build, so I took time out from hides to make a diplomat to keep the city safe from barbarians. In previous games where I waited to found Rome until 3000, I had so many extra units, I fortified them all around the outskirts of Rome creating a buffer between my city and barbarian outbreaks.

2900 hides, 8 huts: 150g, 2 legions, barbarian
2850 hides, 8 huts: 100g, economics, legion, barbarian, 3 knights
Vikings: peace, share maps, give tech
2800 hides, 7 huts: 100g, monotheism, theology, 2 legions, atomic theory
2750 hides, 7 huts: 3 legions, engineering, invention, crusader

>I am only lacking sanitation from hut technology. My invention delaying technique worked perfectly in this game, and now I had a real chance to try and land before 1 A.D.
I wish I hadn’t got the unnecessary polytheism, monotheism and theology, but having everything else more than compensated. Meanwhile it’s still hides, hides, hides. In 2700, my diplomat bribes a barbarian and uses it to kill the leader lurking behind, which I always tremendous get a tremendous kick out of doing.

2700 hides, barbarian leader, 150g, 8 huts: 275g, 2 barbarians
Aztecs: give tech, share maps, 25g tribute
Mongols: give tech, share maps
Carthaginians: give 1 tech, cut off
revolution

>Now I can switch to Republic. All units attached to Rome have been disbanded, Rome is size 3, and I can afford to buy Shakespeare’s Theater with a disbanded unit and gold.

2650 hides, government to Republic,
9 huts: 300g, 2 barbarians, crusader
2600 Shakespeare’s Theater, WLTCD starts at 3
7 huts: 350g, legion
Americans: alliance, share maps, give tech

>The start of a game-long alliance with the Americans. I kept trying with all other AI, but never got any takers.

>Hides are starting to roll into cities demanding it. My strategy was to defer science wonders and other improvements for awhile, and use caravans almost exclusively to jump-start those first few advances I had to learn on my own. Each caravan added a good chunk of beakers to research (much more than my tiny city was capable of) and provided gold I could use later to help finance the purchase of science improvements and wonders, when I had more citizens to make more effective use out of them. It never hurts to get those first 3 trade routes in early, either. Hides payoffs aren’t that terrific, but their sheer quantity gave me a lot of flexibility. Notice how each advance at this critical stage in the game is speeded up by delivering caravans, and how the extra beakers derived from trade have let me keep researching quickly while using 20% luxuries to maintain WLTCD.

2550 hides, hides(d) to Washington, 154g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 124g
2500 hides, 8 huts: 3 barbarians, crusader, 2 legions

>My hides headed for Karakorum can reach it next turn, and hides are still in demand. So I move and am blocked by a Mongol settler. Following turn, guess what, hides are no longer in demand. This is one of the most irritating things about the game, to trot halfway across the world and to lose that demand bonus on the very last turn. It happens so often it can’t be due to just bad luck. However, 92 gold and 92 beakers are better than nothing, and that 3rd trade route has been established. I divert other hides caravans headed towards Karakorum to other cities demanding hides.

2450 hides, 10 huts: 275g, 4 barbarians
2400 hides, hides to Karakorum, 92 g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 160g
5 huts: 2 barbarians, 25g, 2 crusaders
Zulus: give tech, share map
Vikings: give tech, share maps
Carthaginians: give tech, share maps
2350 spice, 6 huts: 125g, 3 legions, barbarian

>Hides finally run out, but every single one I made was critical to the outcome of the game. After making a spice caravan, it’s time to focus on the city improvements I’ve been postponing. Good timing, I’m size 8 and need an aqueduct anyways.

2300 aqueduct, 5 huts: 2 barbarians, 100g, legion
2250 library, 4 huts: 75g, barbarian, crusader
2200 university, 6 huts: 200g, legion, crusader, barbarian
hides(d) to New York, 236 g
2150 marketplace, sanitation, 8 huts: crusader, 275g, barbarian, legion

>Besides adding city improvements and science wonders, I really need to get going on my irrigation and road building, which have also been deferred. So far my lone settler has only made 3 roads to facilitate traffic in and out of Rome. So I head towards explosives to get engineers as quickly as possible. I need them even more quickly than I need Democracy.

2100 sewer system, 3 huts: 150g, hides to Teotihuacan, 112g, hides(d) to Washington, 256g
2050 Copernicus’ Observatory, 4 huts: 150g, barbarian, hides(d) to Trondheim, 212g

>Copernicus is not quite enough to get gunpowder next turn. I was just able to afford the Colossus by selling my granary, and by disbanding all 4 military units I had in Rome, leaving my diplomat all alone with about 25 gold.

2000 Colossus, gunpowder,
7 huts: 2 musketeers, crusader, 175g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 282g

>Now it’s time to rush the development of my city. In previous games I was always falling behind with 4 engineers, so decided on 5 for this game, two for irrigating and farmland, and 2 for roads, which I had been neglecting. The extra one irrigated when food was getting low or made roads when I needed more trade to generate extra science beakers. Even with 5 engineers, I just barely got my city fully developed in time to get 1 turn advances after superhighways.

1950 settler, 6 huts: 150g, 2 musketeers
1900 settler, barbarian leader, 150g, 2 huts: 100g
1850 bank, explosives, 5 huts: 100g, 2 crusaders, barbarian
All AI: give tech, share maps, 75g gift from Americans

>I wanted to research democracy now, but the timing was off, so I picked metallurgy instead. I wanted to learn it on an “o” year, to keep my celebration going.

1800 engineer, 4 huts: 100g, 2 crusaders, hides(d) to New York, 388g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 292g
1750 engineer, metallurgy, 3 huts: 150g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 292g, hides(d) to Trondheim again, 292g

>Leonardo’s was vital to upgrade my settlers to engineers and to upgrade caravans to faster moving freights later. I can now learn Democracy just in time to make oedo happy, so I pick it for research.

1700 Leonardo’s Workshop, 4 huts: 2 musketeers, 75g
1650 food, democracy, revolution, government to Democracy
5 huts: crusader, 100g, barbarian, hides(d) to New York, 418g
1600 Sir Isaac Newton’s College, hut: barbarian
1550 electricity, 2 huts: 50g, crusader, hides(d) to New York, 460g, spice(d) to Teotihuacan, 558g
1500 stock exchange, refrigeration, size 21, 3 huts: barbarian, 100g
All AI: give tech, share maps

>I like to time this giveaway of all technology soon after getting Democracy. Right afterwards, one or more of the AI start learning conscription and may actually succeed before I have to research it myself, many turns down the road. If one of them learns it, I may be able to trade for it later, saving a vital turn of research.

1450 supermarket, hut: 50g

>Now all city improvements and wonders are done, and advances every 2 turns with 80% science are now possible, but it’s a rush with those roads to keep up with the increasing beaker requirements.

1400 gold, steam engine, 2 huts: 25g, crusader
1350 silver

>Now is the time to make food, since nothing else is available or needed.

1300 food, railroad, hut: 50g
1250 food, hut: 50g
1200 food, industrialization, hut: 100g
1150 spice
1100 food, corporation, hut: 50g
1050 food, hut: barbarian
1000 food, refining
975 food

>Here I had a major barbarian invasion close to my city and busy engineers. I needed an extra diplomat to handle them all.

950 diplomat, steel

>WLTPD stops for some mysterious reason. I can’t figure it out.

925 food, WLTPD stops at 32
Americans: trade for conscription

>I wanted to get to automobile by 900, with a fully developed city, in order to cruise to space flight with 1 turn advances. Space flight is needed by 575, to be able to land before 1 A.D. My ally, the Americans, help me out by learning conscription.

900 food, WLTPD starts at 32, combustion,
spice(d) to Washington, 708g
All AI: give tech, share maps

>I give away all tech to the AI just before learning combustion, to put a buffer between their research efforts and flight. I have to give everything else away, as I have been doing periodically throughout the game, to keep my beaker requirements as low as possible.

875 food, automobile, gold to New York, 266g

>I am a turn late, but no longer need to learn conscription. My city is fully developed and now engineers start to disband so the city can celebrate to full size. I only have enough freights to sustain WLTPD until size 35, 2 citizens less than what I had hoped. I was very lucky with the silver to New York, as it arrived with its very last movement point with its critical gold and beaker boost.

850 superhighways, mass production, silver to New York, 562g
825 mass transit, electronics, size 35 (trade: 249 arrows, science: 1764 beakers)

>Now the string of 1 turn advances without the help of freights can begin. I am holding Darwin’s in reserve, just in case my city’s science alone is not enough.

800 spice, leadership, WLTPD cancelled
775 gold, tactics
750 food, machine tools
725 food, miniaturization
All AI: give tech, 400g gift from Americans
700 food, computers
675 research lab, flight (peak science: 1848 beakers)
650 food, radio
625 food, advanced flight

>rocketry took 100% science and my very last Einstein, and spice arrived in New York in time to bring in space flight by 575 B.C., just in time to make a B.C. landing possible. Whew!

600 food, rocketry, spice(d) to New York, 888g
575 silver, space flight, gold to New York, 296g
550 Apollo Program, plastics

>Now I had 11 food freights and only about 250 gold to start building my space ship. It’s a good thing I didn’t need Darwin’s, because I could not afford to build it. For the first time in the game, my city could start producing revenue, but I still had 5 things to learn and needed lots of gold quickly. No one was demanding silver, either.

500 nuclear fission
450 nuclear power
400 laser
350 Americans: give advanced flight and space flight, get 900g gift

>My allies, the Americans save me again and I send my silver to the most remote city.

325 superconductor, silver to Ulundi, 341g
225 fusion power
50 15-1-1-1-1-1 launch

>With so much work and thought invested in this game, I got a little bit defensive. Turns out I had no worries.

49 city walls
48 alpine troops
47 mobile warfare
46 armor
45 rifleman
44 rifleman
Carthaginians: trade for Communism
43 rifleman, combined warfare
42 armor
41 cruise missile
40 diplomat
39 SAM missile battery
38 helicopter, robotics
37 paratrooper
36 helicopter
35 SDI defense
34 factory
33 airport
32 stealth fighter
28 recycling
27 recycling center
23 espionage
22 spy
18 environmentalism
17 solar plant
14 arrival on Alpha Centauri

Scenario score: 259, 33% (my lowest ever)

It took every trick I knew and a lot of luck and precise play to pull this off.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited February 19, 2001).]

[Paul]

Well done, solo. By the way, was it you who said in the thread where you first mentioned the rivermap that you would like to have some extra spies and engineers at gamestart and see what ridiculously early landing dates could be achieved? Or was that someone else?

Anyway, I created two scenarios based on the rivermap. In the first one you start with two spies, two engineers and the default two settlers. In the second one I removed all the huts so that you would have to base your game on skill rather than luck. In that scenario I did give two horsemen so that you could look for the AI civs.

I played two games on the first scenario. The first time I got very unlucky (Invention as my 15th advance, way too early for a BC landing), but I was much luckier in my second attempt. I started the game in 2.42, but when I had finished Apollo I noticed that I couldn't build spaceship parts. When I saved it and continued in MGE I could build spaceship parts, so apparently that trick only works in MGE. I eventually landed in 164 BC. I lost one turn of spaceship construction because I had to build an armor to deal with a major barb uprising or I would have landed in 189 BC.

You can download a zip containing the two scenarios here. River1.scn is the scenario with the spies and engineers, river2.zip is the one with no huts.

[solo]

Paul

Yes, it was me requesting the spies and engineers, but that was before I figured out how to delay invention. Even with spies and engineers, I'm really impressed with your results! Please post your logs.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by Paul on 02-16-2001 04:31 PM Anyway, I created two scenarios based on the rivermap. In the first one you start with two spies, two engineers and the default two settlers. In the second one I removed all the huts so that you would have to base your game on skill rather than luck. In that scenario I did give two horsemen so that you could look for the AI civs.

Yeah!




------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Juggler_Bob]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-16-2001 02:56 PM My biggest problem to solve in this game was finding a reliable way to delay the appear of invention from a hut, because I felt I needed every tech available from huts to have a chance to land before 1 A.D. The technique I discovered worked like a charm, and I will describe it in a later post.

OK, I give... I'll be the first to ask...

How do you bias hut-tipping against Invention?

-Bob

[Paul]

Yes, I'd also like to know more about that.

[Scouse Gits]

We are heating the tongs and polishing the thumb-screws ...
How the h*ll do you delay Invention ?

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[Roman]

Wow, you people are good. How can you land on AC in BC?!?!

[arii]

Congratulation! Impressive. Even if it is a scenario it still takes quite a bit of skill to land at such a date. Do you mind sending me the scenario? e-mail(wvernier@sprintmail.com icq 27973218).
I also created a map to see how early I could land. It is a small map with 5 identical continents that each have 21 trade ressources. Each civ starts in a SSC spot that has 2 gold 2 spices and 12 river squarres. I removed the hutts. The difficulty with that scenario is that you can't get a tribute from any of the 4 AI (since they are on separate continents they do not fear you). I could not get a penny so far from the AI using that scenario, and actually had to give techs and tribute so that the AI don't attack your caravans ( if you spend all your gold before you talk to the AI they can't ask for tribute).
Using this ideal trade map with 4 AI, no hutts and getting no tribute, deity, raging hordes I was able to land in 895 AC. The strategy focussed on sending the appropriate trade comomdity to the different continent. I did not keep a log but have a few saves if anybody is interested in more details.
If anybody is interested in trying this scenario I can e-mail or icq it. Marcus also has a copy of it.

[solo]

I am running some tests to verfiy my technique for delaying invention, just to check out a few things. First test run got me everything except sanitation, same as in my game. When all results are ready I will post here as soon as possible. ETA: tonight or sunday.
A key part of it: study engineering, but only after you get the freebie from philosophy.

To those skeptical or baffled by a B.C. landing, I urge you to give OCC #23 a try. You'll get the idea it's possible pretty quick once you see how great a start the map and those huts give you. I still think Arii's game is more amazing.

Paul

Thanks for making up the 2 extra scenarios. I will definitely give #2 a try as soon as I finish up with the invention thing and other notes accompanying this game. Also, I want to give Ribannah a head start, and see what kind of pitiful score I have to try and beat!

In my game posted here, I also had lots of attention from barbarians. For the most part, I welcomed them, as it gave me cheap units to bribe with my diplomat who I made in 2950. I was always running short of units to disband to start my builds and for adding shields to wonders when I was short on gold. Later in the game, at 950, I had a major invasion right next to all my engineers who were rushing to irrigate and pave my city, so I had to sacrifice a few units to protect them and even build an extra diplomat, because there was too much red around Rome for just one to handle.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-17-2001 11:07 AM I will definitely give #2 a try as soon as I finish up with the invention thing and other notes accompanying this game. Also, I want to give Ribannah a head start, and see what kind of pitiful score I have to try and beat!

I got Democracy before 1 AD in #2, Rome is size 21 and growing



------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire