City improvement build order?

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 03:39 PM Ribannah, Warning: in this thread, it is polite to include one french sentence.

Bien ca alors!

quote: If you don't build improvements, what do you build? Settlers?

Settlers, Warriors, Diplomats, Triremes, Caravans and Wonders.

[/quote]I try to build settlers only in cities with granaries and in cities that reached size limit.
[/quote]

I keep an eye on where I need those Settlers, the timing of Trireme visits, and whether the city has enough food surplus left (I want at least +2 food).

quote: I don't understand why to agree with following sentence: If I don't rushbuild, I don't build an improvement.

Because if you plan it right, you will have the cash available at the time you want that improvement.

quote: ... if you want to augment beaker production in 4-6-0 situation then it is better to use scientists.

It is even better to put those scientists in a library. If necessary, simply adjust to 10% less science an you'll have more income AND more science.

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Dry]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-09-2001 03:39 PM Could you comment my comparison between 1. and 3. in my last post?

I agree with you for the research increase in 3., but you are then in a situation 3-7-0 with improvement costing 1/turn...
I am not so at ease with population in oceans. Usually I avoid that, prefering squares producing 4+ 'things' (food-shield-arrow), the more, the best.

Amicalement.

[This message has been edited by Dry (edited February 15, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Ribannah on 02-15-2001 05:29 AM</font> It is even better to put those scientists in a library. If necessary, simply adjust to 10% less science an you'll have more income AND more science.

You would transfer 1 beaker to 1 gold and lose 1 beaker due to rounding of library profit (in comparison with Dry). On aggregate, you would gain 1 beaker and lose 1 gold per day. All for the price of 80 shields?
Did you read Dry's post (posted February 08, 2001 13:08 )?
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 15, 2001).]

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by Dry on 02-15-2001 07:41 AM I agree with you for the research increase in 3., but you are then in a situation 3-7-0 with improvement costing 1/turn...

I agree, my mistake.

Ca suffit, non? Je ne connait pas plus des mots francais.

[SlowThinker]

Ribannah,
That city produces 7 trades.

[Ribannah]

And you ARE able to employ scientists?
That's what you get if you don't keep your NONE Settlers around.



------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[SlowThinker]

BTW, LOL
I learn quickly.

(BTW, don't laugh too loudly ( ). It doesn't suit you.)

---

1. I thought I taught you basics of logical thinking a little. Read my posts and think about them more thoroughly. (Notice it is nicer not to open a mouth so much)
I compared utilization of scientist with building of library. I didn't declare that the scientist is the best solution, I declared that it is better than library. It means there exist some better solution than a library: It means library is not a good solution. It is what I wanted to demonstrate.

2. It may be very useful to employ a scientist in a city with ANY trade production if it accelerate research of monarchy for example.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-15-2001 10:09 AM You would transfer 1 beaker to 1 gold and lose 1 beaker due to rounding of library profit (in comparison with Dry). On aggregate, you would gain 1 beaker and lose 1 gold per day. All for the price of 80 shields? Did you read Dry's post (posted February 08, 2001 13:08 )?

Huh?

Example: the city makes 4 gold and 15 beakers (with 3 scientists). Now I build a library, which makes it 4 gold and 22 beakers. Shifting to 50/50 yields 5 gold and 21 beakers. The net income stays the same, and I have 6 more beakers every turn - and ever more when the city grows, builds trade routes, a university etc.


------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Roman]

I usually build a marketplace first, then library, etc. I do build quite a lot of settlers in between. Pyramids are always a priority, so I never build granaries.
I am not a very good player, though, so don't use my strategy if you want to be successful.

[Roman]

Hmm, my previous (identical) post regarding this matter seems to have dissapeared.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker on 02-15-2001 07:38 PM I didn't declare that the scientist is the best solution, I declared that it is better than library. It means there exist some better solution than a library: It means library is not a good solution. It is what I wanted to demonstrate.

I know that's what you wanted, but what I showed you is that to combine the two is even better. Note that (not counting tricks) you cannot even have scientists until your city is at least size 5. To make no more than 7 arrows at that point is rather poor. In addition, it's better to grow to size 8 first, when you can employ 3 scientists.

------------------
If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[SlowThinker]

Roman,
See my reasons against a marketplace and a library in this thread.
Science is usually set higher than taxes: I would prefer library then.

Ribannah,
What are tricks to overtake size 5?

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited February 17, 2001).]

[La Fayette]

Excusez-moi, mes bons amis.
I was away from Apolyton last week (training period in Paris ).
Luckily ST was on topic and posted results close to mine.
Thank you ST!
I post a more detailed reply to morrow though.

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Dry on 02-08-2001 01:08 PM Now, starting with 7 arrows, the problem becomes interresting: A: 2g.-5b. B: 3g.-4b. In case A, I will not build a MP nor a lib. In case B, I could build a lib.., for a net 2g.-6b., better than case B. and it is even more interresting with 8, 9, ... arrows Now the question is how much does it cost me to build that lib? A city producing 7 arrows in monarchy is - in my games - typically size 5, thus producing 5 shields. A lib is produced in only 16 turns, usually less because I pay... It could be worth it, isn't it? BTW, how big is your city producing 12 arrows? How do you maintain order - without MP - in such a city? Surely not with HG only, and if you say with MC, then you have MC reaaaaaally early. Caravans? Then you have spend much time in producing them and moving them - more than 20 turns for sure.

1) If you build a library in case B, you win 2 beakers/turn and lose 1 gold/turn. Your investment is 80 shields.
If we try to value roughly your return on investment, we can assume that 1 shield=2 gold (with 50 shields in the box, you can either rushbuild your library at the cost of 60 gold or finish building it with 30 shields, OK?). We can also assume that 1 gold=1 beaker (with help of the tax rate cursor).
Hence your investment of 160 gold provides a net benefit of 1 gold/turn: this is a very low return (that is exactly why I advise to avoid building a library so early).
2) You can get 12 arrows in a very tiny city: for example with 3 trade routes providing 4 arrows each.

Try it once: refrain from building any early library, build a few caravans instead (preferably high priced commodities, column #2, demanded by a fat foreign city), then have a look at your treasury when you deliver them (don't forget that if you get 100 gold instant bonus on delivery, you also get 100 beakers in the research box at the same time, + the continued trade route afterwards).


------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[La Fayette]

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah on 02-15-2001 12:19 PM Huh? Example: the city makes 4 gold and 15 beakers (with 3 scientists). Now I build a library, which makes it 4 gold and 22 beakers. Shifting to 50/50 yields 5 gold and 21 beakers. The net income stays the same, and I have 6 more beakers every turn - and ever more when the city grows, builds trade routes, a university etc.

I agree: 6 beakers/turn is a much better return than 1 beaker/turn (payback in 160/6=27 turns, if no growth). That is exactly why I advised not to build libraries long before that.