No spaceship parts before 1 A.D.?

[Smash]

For this type of map...tip away.No fear.You'll be getting your first 20+ techs from huts.All the way to Invention.
For this map I would recommend not building for at least 15-20 turns.That should give enough nons to clear the map.

[solo]

shamrock -

1) I would say 20 cities, most timed shortly before Apollo is built, so I could try to build my ship on one turn and a few earlier to generate more caravans and freights for trading purposes.

2) A possible way around the 1 A.D. bug would be to require mastery of the whole tech tree before starting on a spaceship.

3) An alternative challenge might be to see who can get the highest point score by 1 A.D. using a custom map. With an earlier version of my river map (get ready, this one had a river on every hex!), it is possible, but tedious work, to beat the deity “record” posted in the 1000 A.D. Hall of Fame.


Chainsaw -

Ditto to what Smash said, and I even go further by always deciding to tip on any map, with the exception of not tipping with the last impulse of a faster unit’s movement factor just in case there might be a barbarian. Whether a tech comes instantly from a hut or trade, or by research, sooner or later it’s beaker cost has to be reckoned with, so why not learn instantly instead of using up 2 or more game turns of research later. Besides instant gratification is the American way!

[Chainsaw]

Is it wise to tip huts as much as possible? The research gets delayed very much by this. So you have to depend on your luck that you have enough huts to compensate this disadvantage, no? When I play OCC, I don`t tip too many huts, before I get monarchy or if certain circumstances make me change my mind.
What do you think abuot early hut tipping in OCC?

Edit: typos
[This message has been edited by Chainsaw (edited February 04, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

I join the admiring throng.

Two comments. I don't find the 100 units at all surprising. I went through a period when I explored for ever on big maps before founding and my experience was that a time comes (quite quickly) when what you get a long succession of units. Barbs we know are not allowed, I only got an advanced tribe once and never got wandering nomads (I now subscribe to the one per landmass theory). So units and advances are the other options. Units seemed to come up much more often.

Was that your experience, solo?

Anyway, second point is that while I didn't go on to try an OCC (never having heard of such a thing at the time) I did soon give up the tactic - because it is just too powerful and wrecks the game.

God is it slow too. Moving all those units gets boring quite quickly.

Oh, and a third point for good measure. Bet someone who knows the hut pattern could go even quicker. Sadly, since learning that there is one I can't help notice some bits and pieces of it so that category will soon (involuntarily) include me.

[solo]

East Side Trader -

1) I concur wholeheartedly with what you said, except that credit for the idea of a river map should go to Roger Hofmann, from whom I borrowed the idea. He used one to score 17,825 points in his record game at the Civfanatics web site. (They don’t know about the food caravan trick over there, yet.) Anyone who dedicated a full year and a half shuffling units around a river map, and survived the experience able to document how he did it, deserves full credit.

2) As for hut output, my results in MGE so far suggest:

a) Before your city is founded, only units, gold or tech will come from huts, so I never bother saving a game before popping those huts. (However, in ToT this is not true, because I remember barbarians once, and maybe even an advanced tribe, so in 2.4.2 results may differ, too.) The distribution seems to be 2/3 units, 1/3 tech, and 1/3 gold in MGE before your city is built.

b) After your city is founded, a map like mine has never given wanderers, and the distribution seems to switch to 2/3 gold, 1/3 units and 1/3 barbarians, though with so much time off earlier in the game, the well-rested barbarians seem to be all you get for a turn or two after building Rome!

Because of this, I try to leave a good supply of huts on the board that are nearer to AI cities, because, yes, 100+ units are quite enough to move around, thank you. However, the extra influx of gold is never an irritation.

As for hut patterns, one is readily apparent to anyone who has ever used the map editor, but I am too lazy to want to keep track of it, so I just connected them with rivers. When I play, I just follow my “hut highways” wherever they lead me.

3) I think my experience with river maps gave me an edge in OCC #22! When I saw those spies and transports and the size of the map, I started to salivate, because I knew just how to exploit all those easily accessible huts. The normal OCC procedure of starting with the Colossus wonder wasn’t best for that situation.

4) The regular OCC format is the most enjoyable for me, too. It takes less time to manage one city and requires more skill. In a way it is too bad, that like any computer simulation, CivII is susceptible to exploitations that distort the game, such as the river map. But I guess that is also part of the fun, too, finding and exploiting the weaknesses in the design! But where do you draw the line? I know I still feel guilty when I sell off my sewer system and aqueduct in OCC, even though this is permitted, so I just don’t do it... unless I can really use the gold!

5) Speaking of exploitations, if you get tired of moving your armies on river maps, don’t forget the “withdraw to nearest city” teleport option. In my current game, I had about 10 legions (who else thinks a legion is just a glorified warrior?) clustered next to a size 1 Mongol city, hoping to save wear and tear on my computer keypad, when instead, I was told to leave immediately or the Mongol “mighty armies” would drive me out! Guess I won’t see space flight too early in this one.


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It is more pleasant to live in the corner of a housetop,
than in a wide house with a brawling woman.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-06-2001 03:09 PM After your city is founded, a map like mine has never given wanderers, and the distribution seems to switch to 2/3 gold, 1/3 units and 1/3 barbarians,

That's how many thirds in total, Solo?
Some valuable knowledge, besides the hut pattern, is the fact that once you have explored a bit around a hut the chance to get Barbarians is much smaller. Also, there is positive autocorrelation in hut outcomes. If you get money from one hut, you're more likely to get money from the next one as well, etc.
You can exploit the above by popping a hut on less suspect terrain before you pop that one on grassland bordering on the dark. I do it all the time and get less barbs than others, or so it seems (OK the secret is out!!). No guarantees though, once in a while the Lady Fortuna is just not on your side, so if I'm not in a hurry I do keep that extra movement point.

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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[solo]

Never mind.

Okay, I'm awake, now. I think I meant 2/3, 1/6 and 1/6 for ratios.

Now I know why I could never get my spaceship configurations right when learning the game. That extra 1/3 was throwing me off!
[This message has been edited by solo (edited February 07, 2001).]

[East Street Trader]

Interesting observations, Ribannah.

I support you on the sequence notion. Under ordinary circumstances, if you tip two or three in the same move or in successive moves then I think that all outcomes except wandering nomads and barbs run in pairs.

I suspect that huts tipped by all civs run in a single sequence.

When the sequence specifies two units, they will be the same unit (so if you are lucky enough to get a four footer from the first hut tipped you may well get another from the second).

When the sequence specifies gold, though, I think the sum is determined by a dice roll, not by a sequence (not sure though - if memory serves, I don't get gold as often as solo. I play 2.42 and in the period when I was exploring forever before founding I don't even think I had the patch).

I hadn't noticed the effect of exploring round the hut on the likelihood of a barb outcome for myself but now you have made that point I begin to think you are right. I'll keep my eye out for that in future games.

Huts and exploring are a fun part of the game to me. Hope there is something of that preserved in Civ3.


solo

Agree with you about the exploitation of quirks. ICS seems to me an abomination but I am glad that it exists and I am admiring of DaveV and others for developing its exposition to such an advanced point.

OCC too is entirely artificial but wonderfully satisfying.

And look at what the scenario developers achieve by exploiting this feature or that!

A rich and satisfying game indeed.

[Scouse Gits]

quote: Originally posted by solo on 02-06-2001 03:09 PM a map like mine has never given wanderers

Interesting map!

You can have nomads so long as you "b" your second settler into Rome and look around the icecaps. I found one near the S. Pole.

-------------

SG(2)

[solo]

Ok, I finally have a log, as promised, but I see that two others have already helped me prove how effective this map can be. Good thing, because this game was full of problems, the foremost being the early appearance of invention. I added a lot of comments to the log, so will begin it now:

OCC #23 MGE, deity Space flight: 100 B.C.

3950 Hut: chariot
3900 3 huts: 50g, chariot, horseman
3850 3 huts: 25g, horseman, masonry
3800 3 huts: archer, horseback riding, archer

>My luckiest start yet, but my luck soon changed

3750 3 huts: 75g, archer
3700 3 huts: 50g, pottery
3650 3 huts: warrior code, 2 chariots
3600 6 huts: 50g, horseman, archer, chariot, wheel
3550 2 huts: archer, horseman
3500 4 huts: 50g, writing, archer, bronze working
Americans: trade for alphabet, peace, give all my tech
3450 2 huts: 25g, iron working

>Now the first unlucky thing happens. The “1” key on my keypad got stuck, and all units took a sudden dive to the southwest before I realized what had happened. I could only sit and watch in horror as about half were washed ashore off their rivers.

3400 4 huts: 100g, horseman, ceremonial burial
3350 7 huts: 75g, 3 horsemen, 2 legion
3300 6 huts: 4 legions, chariot, code of laws

>That key isn’t stuck now

3250 11 huts: 2 legions, 2 horsemen, chariot, currency, literacy, mathematics, construction, bridge building, map making
Aztecs: alliance, give tech
3200 8 huts: 2 chariots, 4 horsemen, legion, monarchy, revolution
Zulus: peace, share maps, give tech
3150 14 huts: 125g, 3 legions, 4 horsemen, 2 chariots, republic, mysticism
3100 20 huts: 100g, 3 horsemen, 7 legions, 3 chariots, 2 elephants, philosophy, polytheism, astronomy

>Good, philosophy and astronomy are vital

3050 government to Republic, 13 huts: 175g, 2 legions, 2 horsemen, chariot, seafaring, engineering, trade, invention

>Bad, I’m missing banking, university, theory of gravity, medicine and sanitation. It really helps to have these to jump start your city, because the first few techs by research come very slowly. At least I have trade and republic. Philosophy will only give me one more freebie, but I don’t like my chances.

Rome founded

>I chose the same site as my last game, 2 spice and 2 gold. I think this is the best combination available. Besides the 4 trade, the extra food from spice gets you to size 3 quickly, and leads to an extra Einsteins later. I hate to lose one of my irrigators, though.

3000 hides, 6 huts: 100g, elephant, barbarian
Vikings: peace, share maps, give tech
2950 hides, medicine, 22 huts: 500g, 10 barbarians, legion

>For my freebie, medicine is a no-brainer since I have to grow fast, but next I am only offered university and banking from my list of vital techs, above. I thought long and hard, and decided on banking, as this helps keep science at 80% during WLTCD, and is a prerequisite for democracy, which I needed to grow over size 21. I’m hoping Copernicus and caravans are enough for early science.

2900 spice, 13 huts: 2 legions, 375g, 3 barbarians
Mongols: peace, share maps, give tech
2850 granary, 11 huts: 225g, 4 barbarians, 2 legions, elephant
2800 library, 15 huts: 600g, horseman, legion, barbarian

>Only 1 barbarian? This guy must be cheating.

2750 temple, 15 huts: 325g, 3 legions, 3 barbarians

>I told my first citizen to work extra hard and he did.

2700 food, 7 huts: 2 legions, 250g
Carthaginians: peace, share maps, give tech
2650 food, 6 huts: 75g, elephant, barbarian, 2 legions
2600 Copernicus’ Observatory, 4 huts: 75g, legion, horseman

>Now beakers are at about 50, but I wish I had a university now, too. No use hoarding gold, I save one food for next turn.

2550 Shakespeare’s Theater, WLTCD starts at 3, 11 huts: 225g, 2 elephants, barbarian, 2 horsemen, chariot
2500 marketplace, 7 huts: 200g, 2 barbarians

>Marketplace is vital to keep science at 80%, now it’s as many caravans as possible to get those 1 turn advances

2450 hides, 8 huts: 4 barbarians, 50g, chariot, horseman
2400 hides, 3 huts: legion, 50g, elephant
Americans: share maps, give tech, Aztecs: ditto
2350 Colossus, 6 huts: 2 legions, 100g, 2 barbarians

>Just able to pay, after disbanding a few units. Now my beakers are up to around 100.

2300 hides, 4 huts: 150g
2250 aqueduct, 4 huts: 125g, legion
2200 hides, banking, hides(d) to Washington, 268g, hides(d) to Trondheim, 222g, 3 huts: legion, 75g

>I hate to use 2 caravans for 1 tech, but I need sanitation real quick

2150 bank, 2 huts: 50g, chariot
2100 gold, sanitation, spice(d) to Teotihuacan, 408g, 3 huts: legion, 75g

>That was convenient, I just reached size 12! Decent payoff for spice, too. I had to wait rest of the game to cash in that gold caravan, though.

2050 sewer system, 7 huts: 3 legions, 100g, barbarian
2000 gems, democracy, 2 huts: 75g

>That wasn’t convenient, I just missed the “o” year. Now I miss a turn of research to anarchy.

1950 food, 2 huts: 2 barbarians
1900 settler, 4 huts: 125g, barbarian, legion, revolution

>This was my smartest move in the game, because one settler is just not cutting it. I need to fully irrigate as quickly as possible, and continue by starting my roads. Needed beakers and those on hand were enough out of whack, I could afford to lose the citizen, without slowing research on my next advance.

1850 food, government to Democracy

>Sad to see commodities stop, but happy to be a democracy

1800 food, WLTPD starts at 15, 2 huts: 50g, elephant
1750 food, university, 3 huts: 25g, legion, barbarian
1700 university
1650 food, Vikings: give tech
1600 food, theory of gravity, give tech to everyone, 100g gift from Aztecs, hides(d) to Trondheim, 310g
1550 Sir Isaac Newton’s College, WLTPD stops at 19, chemistry, hides(d) to Karakorum, 400g

>Now it was 1500, vital wonders and improvements are ready, and research is down to 2 turns/advance, but due to the early appearance of invention, I still had about 30 things to learn, and only 50 turns to work with, if I wanted space flight before 1 A.D. What to do? I put all my trust in caravans and superhighways, but I was so far behind my previous game that I had serious doubts. “The other players here are the best I know”, I thought, “Maybe one or two will manage space flight before 1 A.D. and save me the task of proving it can be done.”

1500 silver, WLTPD starts at 19, economics
1450 food
1400 food, gunpowder, hides(d) to Utica, 434g
1350 Leonardo’s Workshop, explosives, hides(d) to Boston, 386g
1300 stock exchange, WLTPD stops at 22, navigation

>I had to keep interrupting WLTPD to get those vital one turn commodity advances. 80% science was not quite enough.

1250 food, WLTPD starts at 22
1200 food, physics
1150 food, hut: 50g
1100 food, metallurgy
1050 food, hut: musketeer
1000 food, steam engine, hut:elephant

>Only 40 turns left now, and about 24 techs left. I’m still behind the eight ball, here. I am now at 28, maximum size, and with engineers, the roads will all be built just in time for superhighways. There simply isn’t enough time to bother with farmland. Good! One less tech I have to learn!

975 food, WLTPD stops at 28, All AI: give away all tech, share maps, 100g gift from Aztecs
950 food, railroad, gems(d) to Karakorum, 446g, 2 huts:100g
925 food, magnetism
900 food
875 food, industrialization, hut: 25g
850 food, hut: barbarian
825 food, corporation
800 food
775 food, electricity

>Forgot to build a food here for 750, it’s getting late

725 food, refining, silver(d) to Teotihuacan, 570g
700 food, steel
675 food, Aztecs: give tech, share maps, 125g gift, Americans: trade for conscription, give tech, share maps
All others: give tech, share maps

>Picking up conscription from the Americans was lucky. I give away all tech just before learning combustion to keep a buffer between AI research and flight. Those buggers can sure learn fast when you don’t want them to.

650 food, combustion
625 food
600 food, automobile

>At last! All my hopes now are pinned on superhighways and getting 1 turn advances from science alone.

575 superhighways, mass production

>Beakers needed are 1431, I can do that with 90% science and 1 Einstein

550 mass transit, electronics
525 food, feudalism
500 food, chivalry
475 food, leadership
450 food, atomic theory, give tech to AI

>100% science and it took my final Einstein. It was time to give away tech to the AI again!

425 food, tactics
400 food, nuclear fission
375 food, machine tools, gold(d) to Tlateloclo, 1098

>My spell checker doesn’t like Aztec city names. The great run of 8 one-turn advances from superhighways was more than I expected. Beakers needed are now 1674, just a few more than I have on hand.

350 gold, nuclear power
325 food
300 food, miniaturization
275 food
250 diplomat, computers

>Now that my problems with research are over, disbanding units has left a hole for a major barbarian invasion with stronger units than I have on hand. Leonardo‘s had to be cancelled before the upgrades, so I’m not taking any chances. I have plenty of money to bribe them with.

225 research lab, flight
200 food
175 food, radio
150 Darwin’s Voyage, advanced flight, laser
125 food, rocketry, gold(d) to Tlateloclo, 834g
100 food, space flight
75 Apollo Program

>The rest is routine, so I quit here. I did better in my previous game, where I was so lucky. This effort required a lot of thought. Now if we can fix the parts problem, and if Paul will start me off with a few spies and engineers just where I want them, I think a landing before 1 A.D. is doable with this map.