Nuclear War

[Barington]

Does any one know what triggers the AI to build the Manhattan Project. With most other wonders it seems to me that the AI start building soon after the prerequisite advance is discovered.
Of course with Nuclear Fission any civ human or AI can build Manhattens as soon as any civ discovers NF. But they often dont. Any ideas?
PS I suppose everyone knows the trick of sheiding a large city without SDI with the SDI in a small (well defended city) nearby. So long as you keep a lot of units about 5+ I think in the big city the AI will shoot endless nukes at it to no effect. The AI keep no record of the failures. Is this a cheat? I regard it as levelling out the advantage the AI have in always knowing exactlly where you have SDI without using spies. They never nuke a city with its own SDI in my experience.
Richard

[Albert B]

quote: Originally posted by Barington on 01-26-2001 07:27 AM Of course with Nuclear Fission any civ human or AI can build Manhattens as soon as any civ discovers NF. But they often dont.

Is this true? I have never noticed this, seen it posted and don't remember reading anything about it in the manual. You are saying that regardless who discovers NF, I can build Manhattens with out having knowledge of NF myself? If I am not misunderstanding you, then I would be very suprised and disappointed if this is really true. Can someone else verify/denounce this observation?

[War4ever]

This is false. IF you build the Manhattan Project then you can build nukes if you also have the necessary technology. Manhattan Project doesnt' mean you get nukes right away. A civ must then steal or discover the tech itself to qualify. However if the ai has the necessary prereqs and someone has built the project then they can build nukes too. Once the tech is out there and the ai will trade it around and the Manhattan Project has been built, then all can build nukes... ie the cat is out of the bag.

[Caesar the Glutton]

I don't know what triggers the AI to start building the Manhattan Project, but in my current game the Mongols were a Democracy and had already discovered NF. Upon discovering fundy, he switched govt's and started building MP. We're each building it now.

The End is near.

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Nam si violandum est ius, regnandi gratia violandum est: aliis rebus pietatem colas

[Albert B]

War4ever, I know that you have to have rocketry and have MP built to be able to make and use nukes. The original post implies that every civ can start building MP once one civ has discovered nuclear fission. I believe this to be totally false and your post leads me to believe I have an idea of where his confusion may lie. The way things should work (and I'm pretty sure they do work this way):

you must know (discover, trade for, steal, etc) nuclear fission to be able to start building MP.

However, once one civ has built MP, any civ with knowledge of rocketry can build nukes.

I think it is pretty clear for me now, unless anyone has proof to contradict this.

Albert B

[Barington]

D'oh!
Your right I got all this cause and effect sequence confused. Thanks all for the clarification.
Richard

[War4ever]

sorry i too misread. Yes you need to have nuke fission to build the MP. If i discover it... no ai can build it until they discover, trade, steal for it.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

In my experience (I play mainly on King and Emperor, and usually ToT these days), the AI will only build MP if it has the prerequisites to build the nukes themselves. So, if the AI discovers Nuclear Fission, it won't start to build the wonder until it has Rocketry as well.

Good thing, too, because as soon as the AI has Nuclear Fission I work as hard as I can to get Laser... of course it's inevitable that the stupid AI will trade the techs so that everybody can build nukes.

Question for you Civ experts: I usually am 'Supreme' by this point in the game. However, I hate to waste shields on nukes that I seldom use, so I don't build any in most games. As far as reputation goes, does the AI consider an opponent weaker just because they don't have any nukes? I find the AI gets much more aggressive when it feels it has that edge (even though I could have a dozen nukes in a turn if I wanted). Is there any evidence that not having nukes worsens your esteem with the AI?

STYOM

[Bereta_Eder]

HI STYOM.

I have absolutely no idea about what you are asking.

But I remember reading in CIV 1 manual that for the AI, discovering a tech is not enough. You must also produce the new arms and "bring them to bear" if I remember correctly - that is show the new arms to the AI - have them moved around next to them in your turn. (But nukes do not show)

Of course this is only hypothetical (did this transfer to civ 2?) and from my own experience I always build 3 or 4 nukes as soon as Manhattan Project is built, just in case.So I don't know if the ai would respond differently if the nukes weren't there.

[Blaupanzer]

The AI makes a big thing out of backing their words with nuclear weapons. Thus, the programmers probably built something in for them to notice if you have them. I know for sure the AI will "nuke hunt," i.e., shoot nukes at your nukes in cities without SDI. If you have a city protected by another city's SDI, that is, within three squares, you can drive the AI nuts by putting a nuke in that city. The AI will burn a ton of shields shooting nukes at that city. All you "sleazers" (you know who you are) can take advantage of that.

[Scouse Gits]

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer on 01-27-2001 12:11 AM All you "sleazers" (you know who you are) can take advantage of that.

Good tactics! However, if you are a sleazer - the nearest the AI ever gets to having anything resembling a nuke is the dome on top of a temple.

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SG(2)

[Marko_Polo]

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 01-26-2001 07:35 PM In my experience (I play mainly on King and Emperor, and usually ToT these days), the AI will only build MP if it has the prerequisites to build the nukes themselves. So, if the AI discovers Nuclear Fission, it won't start to build the wonder until it has Rocketry as well.

In my experience this is true.. I'm just about to finish my 'OCC bloodlust' (!!) game where in the end the only remaining wonder was MP. The was also an expired 'Oracle' around. All AI's had NF but not rocketry. To my suprise one AI even started to build that obsolete 'Oracle' and finished.Only after a long time when I was quite ahead conquering the AI's Greek started on MP but then he had rocketry. (I captured his MP building city before he completed it)

[Stuff2]

quote: Originally posted by Barington on 01-29-2001 12:28 PM [Originally posted by Blaupanzer ) Actually I never usually build any nukes mainly because I have always believed what STYOM above suggests ie that the AI percieve you as more powerful if you have them. With the way I play only using democracy and always being the most powerful my problem is getting them to attack. Richard [This message has been edited by Barington (edited January 29, 2001).]

There is several ways of starting a war when you are in a democrazy and want to stay democracy. One way is to simply violate enemy territory and send message to their leader to redraw their troops (even though they don't have any troops in your territory). Sooner or later they will go mad and start war with you.

Another way is to pay a third country money to wage war with your 'enemy' and hope that your betrail gets noticed. It's usually noticed after the discovery of espionage, and they usually declare war with you.

Subverting cities (for the double cost) gives you no diplomatic penalties and still, the nation you have stolen the city from get's very upset. It's a great way of getting bad relations with another civ.

But the best way is simply to get a lousy reptutation early on and keep being supreme, these attributes in combinations make the ai-opponents go mad of anger and envy. You can be sure that they won't keep a treaty more than maybe ten turns.

[Chainsaw]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Stuff2 on 01-29-2001 01:09 PM</font> One way is to simply violate enemy territory and send message to their leader to redraw their troops (even though they don't have any troops in your territory). Sooner or later they will go mad and start war with you.

Is it necessary to have troops in the enemy`s territory? I can`t ask them to withdraw if they haven`t any troops in MY territory and when I´m in democracy.


[This message has been edited by Chainsaw (edited January 29, 2001).]

[Edward]

Stuff2,

I was under the impression that paying a third country to go to war with someone you have a peace treaty with was a violation of that treaty and worsened your reputation. Is this true?

That's a great idea about being a Democracy which purposely has a bad reputation. Usually I try to avoid a bad reputation, but I guess it comes in handy when you want the AI to attack you.