bribing non-barb units

[La Fayette]

Debeest,
The results of the test I ran last night are OK with yours. I suppose that we might consider that: S(T+1000)/integer= cost (for a dip)
is the formula.
All discounts for empty city,...and so on, also seem to be OK.
There remains one point to be tested: exact relationship between integer and distance to the capital.
I got one precise result in 3 different cities with no capital: integer=11
If integer=D+3, as stated by Winkler, then Dmax in case of "no capital" would neither be 32 (as stated by Winkler), nor 16 (as stated by ST), but 8!
IMO some more testing is needed.

ST
The Italians say:
Chi va piano va sano
Chi va sano va lontano
It seems to me that the name you chose is going to lead you a long way ahead. Go on and don't care too much about the quality of your english. As long as you make yourself understood, I suppose it's OK for anyone.
Happy New Year!

[SlowThinker]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by La Fayette on 12-29-2000 10:00 AM</font> There remains one point to be tested: exact relationship between integer and distance to the capital. I got one precise result in 3 different cities with no capital: integer=11 If integer=D+3, as stated by Winkler, then Dmax in case of "no capital" would neither be 32 (as stated by Winkler), nor 16 (as stated by ST), but 8! Happy New Year!

La Fayette,
Did you read my post (posted December 28, 2000 17:19)? I think all problems with distance should be clevered:
I consider Civ map as a grid of xy cartesian coordinates, turned by 45 degrees. So my distance is measured north-east direction or sud-east direction or...
I remind: I don't know how to measure distance if both coordinates of city and unit are different!
Joyeux Annee 2001! (Mon francais n'est pas mieux que anglais, peut-etre c'est mal dit...)
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited December 29, 2000).]

[debeest]

SlowThinker, sorry, is your dip/spy thread just an ordinary post-to thread? Mea culpa. Please feel free to transfer my commentary to it in any way you can.

I haven't kept track of diplomat tech-theft failure rate, but I'd casually estimate it at around one-half to one-third failure.

My reference to longest dimension and shortest dimension means: count the number of vertical spaces and the number of horizontal spaces between points, as the map itself is oriented; the larger number is the longest dimension, and the smaller number is the shortest dimension, and supposedly you add the largest dimension plus 1/2 of the shortest dimension to get distance. Maybe if I orient myself to a 45-degree rotation as you suggested, everything will become clear to me. I'll try it.

LaFayette, yes, I think the most concise formula for city bribe is:

Cost = Size * (Treasury + 1000) / Distance integer

Maybe we can define the distance soon.

It seems unlikely to me that having no capital at all would set a maximum distance smaller than you can get with a capital.

SlowThinker, I'm fairly confident, though not absolutely certain, that a courthouse doubles cost. That would have the same effect as cutting the distance INTEGER in half. If, instead, it cuts the DISTANCE in half, it would be pretty close to the same thing at long distances, but have little effect at short distances. I guess I'll do a little testing to check this, too.

[SlowThinker]

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by debeest on 12-29-2000 02:58 PM</font> SlowThinker, sorry, is your dip/spy thread just an ordinary post-to thread? Mea culpa. Please feel free to transfer my commentary to it in any way you can.

Yes, my idea was to concentrate all discussion about dip/spy there and to clear posts when concrete problem is solved and integrated to the first post (probably more people should have the right to edit first post so that integration is always fast). I think almost all Apolyton could be managed this way and then there wouldnt be so large redundancy. It is terrible to search in Apolyton's threads concrete information sometimes.

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by debeest on 12-29-2000 02:58 PM</font> I haven't kept track of diplomat tech-theft failure rate, but I'd casually estimate it at around one-half to one-third failure.

Look to my thread, new things arose (7.2-7.4).

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by debeest on 12-29-2000 02:58 PM</font> It seems unlikely to me that having no capital at all would set a maximum distance smaller than you can get with a capital.

My opinion is that no capital sets all distances to 16 resp. 10

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by debeest on 12-29-2000 02:58 PM</font> SlowThinker, I'm fairly confident, though not absolutely certain, that a courthouse doubles cost. That would have the same effect as cutting the distance INTEGER in half. If, instead, it cuts the DISTANCE in half, it would be pretty close to the same thing at long distances, but have little effect at short distances. I guess I'll do a little testing to check this, too.

The result of my courthouse test(just finished): First, distance is pruned to Dmax, if needed. Then, distance is halved and rounded down.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited December 29, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited December 30, 2000).]

[William Keenan]

Congradulations Tonic, that was some excellent formula cracking! Bravo!

I have an unknown variable to add to your formula.

At some point late in the game, M changes from 2.05 to 3.1. This change becomes apparent when the cost of bribing barbarian units changes. Musketeers go from 62 to 93, Partisans from 102 to 155, etc.

[SlowThinker]

Debeest and La Fayette,
I think that I'v solved the problem how to measure distance for general case:
1. Divide the route from capital to unit to two parts:
straight(adjacent squares connected by lines; for example north-east before rotating) and diagonal (adjacent squares connected by edges; for example up, left, down before rotating).
2.distance=(straight part)+(1.5*diagonal part)
3.round distance down
It is all: use in formula

If it works (i tested briefly), then 4.32 in my thread is solved.

It is equivalent to debeest's

quote: My reference to longest dimension and shortest dimension means: count the number of vertical spaces and the number of horizontal spaces between points, as the map itself is oriented; the larger number is the longest dimension, and the smaller number is the shortest dimension, and supposedly you add the largest dimension plus 1/2 of the shortest dimension to get distance.

but you must rotate the map by 45 degrees first.

Why both ways are equivalent? Since you may imagine that diagonal part as a hypotenuse of two non-diagonal parts:

A
OO
O_O
O__O
O___O
BOOOOCOOOOOD

A and D are unit and capital
AC is diagonal part (and hypotenuse)
CD is straight part
BD is longer dimension
AB is shorter dimension
AB and BC are "two non-diagonal parts"
_ is nothing
O is the route between A and D

[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited December 29, 2000).]

[SlowThinker]

William Keenan, look at http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum1/HTML/001678.html?5
we are trying to concentrace dip/spy wisdom there

[SlowThinker]

debeest,
Maybe, you could make some bold announcement here and refer people to my thread, so that discussion is concentraced. Or, accordingly to my "Post 2", you could suggest people to post here about strategies and to post facts to my thread.

[debeest]

SlowThinker's thread on spies and diplomats (which is not on what I think of as the regular list of Civ 2 strategy topics, but has a link in this thread), is terrific. It's done in a way that allows for feedback and modification within the thread, comprehensively addressing one specific topic in one location, which I think would work very well for the Great Library. Check it out!!

[La Fayette]

ST
I remember that I read somewhere that Xin Yu used to measure distances with exactly the same formula (*1,5 for "diagonal squares"). I suppose it would perhaps be a good idea to test *1,414 (diagonal of a square).
But I get bored testing bribery.
I HATE BRIBING.
I swear I am going to play at least 3 games "NO BRIBE" from now on. I leave it to Tonic and debeest and you. Good luck to you all.
(BTW I get repeatedly S*(T+1000)=11 when bribing cities with no capital, but I play version 1.024, perhaps that's why).


------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

[SlowThinker]

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette on 01-08-2001 09:42 AM ST ...the same formula (*1,5 for "diagonal squares"). I suppose it would perhaps be a good idea to test *1,414 (diagonal of a square).

No, it is 1.5 exactly.

[debeest]

You're getting bribe costs = S * (T + 1000) * 11 because there's a courthouse in the city, so the maximum distance (16) is cut in half, making 8, before the three is added.