The Great Library -- to build or not to build

[Maelhavok]

Hello Civ2 fans,

I was reading a recent post that transposed into this subject and I wanted to hear your views. GL or no GL. For me, GL. I conquer early. My tech tends to go Monarchy-Philosophy-Invention-Democracy. The GL is the only near indespensible ancient wonder for me. GL enables me to put min % in science when I get Lady Liberty and switch to Fundy. I can build hoards and amass gold and be no worse than tied for 2nd 'til ELECTRICITY. The whole time which egghead sucker civ do you think will get the brunt of my Grand Armee.
Some famous poster said that it takes longer to research your techs w/GL, I disagree. Although any specific tech may not be researched first, given that all techs are mandatory and you lose no beakers thru conquest or GL the stored beakers will eventually get your chosen tech first. This combined with attacking AI civ tech leader for me means NO ONE gets electricity at all because when I rule the world, everybody practices green simple living.

Merry Holidays,

Maelhavok

[jcarkey]

I am a nay-sayer. It doesn't make you lose beakers. With every tech that you research, it takes an increasing amount of beakers to research a tech. The AI usually picks to research bad techs, meaning you get those bad techs and a higher rate of research. So if you were to want a specific tech, then you would have to raise your science rate which in effect reduces the use of the GL signifigantly.

------------------
Save the whales, collect the whole set!!

If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle

If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith

[Ken Hinds]

I'm finding more and more that what I tend to do is not build the GL. With judicious care and planning I can keep it under 10 turns/tech and rush to Metalurgy and Electricity which will kill off the two biggest headaches to deal with if someone else has them at Deity, but do very little to help except against the barbarians. I'm also leaning more toward Gunpowder then Chivelry so that I can create Barbarian knights to hassle everyone else and still have a decent defense against them myself.

Another reason for not building the GL and for killing it early is that it seems to be fairly high on the list for the AI, the same as KRC. The AI Civs will keep starting and abandoning it over and over until someone finally completes it. At that point the only value that they have to you is for score points so let them build those instead of Hover's, liberty, or SETI which are much more useful to you.

Ken

[ChrisShaffer]

It depends on the game, but I like the Great Library. You're going to have to research every tech anyway, so while it might delay getting a specific tech, no matter how you count it you end up needing less beakers overall - thus, a gain.

If I'm on a good trade map, I don't build it. But if I'm on a low trade map, I build it every time. Try playing the Persians on Carta Incognita from Maps of Complexity - a real challenge and the Great Library made the difference for me.
[This message has been edited by ChrisShaffer (edited December 23, 2000).]

[Builder]

It depends on how good you are.

When I play on emperor level(never won yet ) I always build it, without it I find myself far behind the other civs.

On lower levels I always far ahead of them so there is no need in wasting time and shields on the GL.

[SilverDragon]

I build it so the annoying AI doesn't get a tech every time I trade with another AI.

------------------
Go Redskins!

Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com

[Mercantile]

The thing is , you don't need to research every tech to win. Even with a perfectionist strategy, your going to take out some ai's at some point. The GL slows specific research and gives you techs in reality, you don't really need. I used to build it, never any more. It stalls my science growth.

[Blaupanzer]

i am an advocate of the GL in most games. I always play at deity and find that the easiest way to win is to slow the whole science thing down in the middle game. As I said in another thread, if you slow your own science rate, so do the AIs. With the GL, you won't fall behind. Once I get the SOL, or using Oedo's years, I switch between democracy and fundy, depending on my goals in winning. The GL is a really powerful tool in this.

I understand that in MP, the GL is regarded as a real prize, another proof of its value.

[Edward]

As a warning, I've only played single player, so my views will be somewhat narrow minded.

The Great Library is a wonderful, wonderful wonder if you're going to set your science rate low and concentrate on a military. It means "free" techs with no effort.

I, however, usually play to win via the space race. Here keeping ahead of the AI in research is important.

A couple comments on the "I have to research every tech anyway" view.

1) When you get a certain tech is important. The first civilization to say Monotheism is much more likely to build Michaelangelo's Cathedral than the second or third. Theology is a useless and research-impeding tech if you get it after J.S. Bach's has been built. Wonders are very potent in Civ 2 so it often becomes a game of races for the next wonder. In these races a streamlined tech path is more important than merely knowing a lot of techs. Even if you have to eventually learn a tech, learning it later rather than earlier can be a big help due to wonder building considerations.

Getting a tech for "free" from the Great Library means you don't have spend beakers to get it, so it would seem that you'll spend fewer beakers overall to get to Space Flight. However, the Great Library might make you miss out on some tech-enhancing wonders (Copernicus's Observatory being a big one with the AI). These wonders give you back "free" beakers that you can use on techs of your choosing.

2) You can sometimes skip over early techs and never research them if you get lucky with tech trading. Railroad is a pretty important tech. To get it you need Bridge Building and to get that you need Iron Working and to get that you need Warrior Code. So I guess you need all these techs, right? Not so. A friendly AI might trade you Iron Working or Bridge Building, meaning you'd never have to learn Warrior Code at all (we need railroads, not archers). That way you'd have (at least) one less tech in your bag slowing down your research.

I've only recently realized the importance of a streamlined tech path. It's easy to think of your rate of research or needed beakers as a mysterious factor out of your control and merely wait until the game sees fit to give you your next advance. On this board I've learned that I can influence my research rate in ways other than sending out more caravans.

[Blaupanzer]

Edward, excellent observation on bypassing techs. I'm not convinced about the GL, but I do understand the "streamlined tech path" faction a little more clearly based on your observation. Note, I do not always go for world conquering. I decide the direction at Fundamentalism time. If I'm reasonably sure I can, I'll conquer. If not, I'll go to Democracy and get a huge leap on the AI, who won't change govs and science rates quite as quickly. Even in Fundy, I'll switch to Demo for a military tech or two, and in Demo to Fundy to pump out a quick set of units or improvements, before switching back in both cases.

[Carolus Rex]

In single player the GL used to be one of my favourite wonders. Now I never build it against the AI. Why? It simply is not needed to win either way (conquest or space race). All those shields can be used to build better things IMHO.

However, I see some use of it in MP. Last night I played in a 7 player simultaneous game, alliances allowed, map size 100x100 (I think). Right at the beginning of the game I decided to go for the GL, something that was even more tempting when I discovered I was somewhat isolated on a fairly small island. Why?

First of all the GL is more useful when you play humans, because they tend to make better tech choices than the AI. Second, on a map that large early contact is, well, not so early. Trading techs with others is (possibly) delayed, increasing the importance of GL and the Embassy.

It also prevents (to some extent) allies from changing techs, or at least forces them to be more careful about when and which techs to trade. This can of course also be a disadvantage (as noted by people above) in that people can trade useless (for the moment anyway) techs to slow you down.

As an example, when I started to research construction I had a science rate of 7 or 8 turns. Techs dropped in from the GL, and when I finally got construction the rate was about 15 turns (which I got down to 11 when researching engineering by founding more cities and rearranging workers).

Another drawback is the random element mentioned in posts above. For example, I got feudalism from the GL meaning that warriors were no longer an option in the building list. The first row of shields thus vanished making rushbuilding more expensive. Also, if I build Leo's then I can't use the warrior to musketeer trick. Maybe not a big deal, but it illustrates the point.

All in all, I think I agree with the title of this thread. To build or not to build the GL, that is still the question.

Carolus

[Carolus Rex]

Oh, I forgot...

Happy New Civing Year, everybody!

Carolus

[Smokey tha nuke man]

yes, da smokes builds the GL fo two reasons. one, it lets him reaserch one thing while two, more science based civs reaserch something elese, then they trade techs, then da smokes gets the tech too. two, it keeps the other civs from getting free advaces. in the ps1 version of civ2, i build cause i like the cinema that you get when you finish it.

[inca911]

I never build the GL. I am always ahead in tech and I only play Deity. The additional (and more useless) techs obtained from the AI via the Library simply slow down the scientific progress of a civ. Remember that the more techs you have, the more beakers it takes for your next advance. If you want to concentrate on military conquest, the best thing to do is to be #1 in tech and have your Dragoons vs. their Phalanxes. I agree with CR that in multiplayer the value of the GL is debatable. But in single player, the need for a Great Library is a clue that you need to better manage the trade arrows of your civ. I'd much rather focus on building the Colossus (Trade) or the Hanging Gardens (Happiness and faster early growth) or some much more useful wonder over the shield investment the GL requires. The additional trade from the Colossus, or the ability to grow quicky gaining trade arrows, increased trade bonuses, and scientists where needed give you all the science advantage you need.

[Sten Sture]

I hate the GL!

Okay, that is too strong, but I would only build it in a situation like C-Rex brilliantly elucidated. (had to go to the library to look that word up)

The things I don't like about it are:

Timing - early in the game I want to control my tech tree route, especially those first 19 techs
Cost - those caravans will get you four of your own techs right away
Unreliable - Dumb AIs research stuff that is not necessary and they are too slow about it