A is for Alphabet

[Ljube]

Here's a screenshot of 9 starting techs.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

savegame, ljcvetko?

[Ljube]

Don't really understand (English is not my first language) but just in case I'll post another screenshot (there's plenty of those I can generate) and a save 4000 BC. It's OzzyKP's world we modified a little bit for our tuesday night eurotime diplo game. Atawa chose to start on New Zealand (Aztec) and his position is generating these results regularly.

[Ljube]

And the save

[rah]

9, pretty damn good.
Too bad we're not allowed to have that kind of start in a our MP games.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

That does look good. Of course, whenever I get several free techs, I dread to see the start position.

[rah]

With those nine techs, it would have to be really really really really bad for it to neutralize the advantage.

[Ljube]

Starting techs are definitely linked not with quality of land, but with size of starting continent.
Although I don't have the proof for my claim, the fact that I couldn't get anything less than 3 starting techs in that position is pretty convincing circumstantial piece of evidence.

[rah]

Yeah, I've gotten a lot of techs before and been in a real nice river valley with lots of specials and huts, thinking what's so bad about this.

Having to restart a lot of mp games because of techs allows you to see many openings. (at least what the opening screen shows)

[Scouse Gits]

Do I understand that this is not a true random start, but one where the starting positions of the civs have been predetermined?
If so could you please post the map - and, time permitting, I shall run a series of starts to see what will be seen ...

Thanks - this is important data

[Ljube]

Not a random start.
Set position on a map larger than 10000.

The max number of techs received on start could depend on map size.
If we could test a start on a small island on a giga map, that might produce more than 9 start techs

Strange how I never got republic. I remember I got republic once or twice in civ 1. In civ 2 I don't remember starting with republic ever.


And it's true that the AI has unsinkable triremes from 4000 BC. In one game I was playing, the English built London on one island and York on another one.

[rjmatsleepers]

(Warning: I will cross-post this on the civ2 engine topic in case some people only read certain topics.)

I have recently been making a lot of attempts at early landing. I use 2.42, playing the English, deity, raging hoards, medium map. For early landing, I need a start without techs. My experience has been that no tech starts are not very common (less than 1 in 5?) Would I be more likely to get a no tech start if I bit the bullet and played as the Romans?

Also, despite a number of comments in this thread, my experience has been that the no tech starting positions are worse than those with initial techs. I have had quite a few very good initial positions that I couldn't use because of the starting techs whereas most of the ones I can use seem to have a lot of tundra around. It seems to me that the tech alocation algorithm is rather complicated. Any suggestions as to how I can increase the chances of a good, no tech start?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Ecthy]

Wow, someone did dig this one out...

9 starting techs is nice. I think they mostly appear as island civs, white colour... do civ characteristics play in as well?

[duke o' york]

Originally posted by ljcvetko:
And it's true that the AI has unsinkable triremes from 4000 BC. In one game I was playing, the English built London on one island and York on another one.

Although it seems as though the AI started with triremes, it would only be possible if it was a scenario and the particular civ had been given both a starting tech and a unit. The AI settlers do not necessarily start in the same position, although they often do. It is more common to have settlers split between two islands if the civ has been reborn though.

Originally posted by rjm
Also, despite a number of comments in this thread, my experience has been that the no tech starting positions are worse than those with initial techs. I have had quite a few very good initial positions that I couldn't use because of the starting techs whereas most of the ones I can use seem to have a lot of tundra around. It seems to me that the tech alocation algorithm is rather complicated. Any suggestions as to how I can increase the chances of a good, no tech start?

The chances of getting techs with your start depends upon how the computer rates your starting position, not how you rate it. Because the white civ are placed on the map first, then they are least likely to get free techs because the AI will place the other civs after them and they will have to be a certain distance away (differs according to map size) before you'll get free techs. Because the pruple civ is placed last then there is a greater chance that they will be closer to more other civs than the others who have been placed and so will tend to get more techs. Unfortunately, the distance from other civs and the quality of the land depends upon the AI, so you'll not get any techs if you're far away from the other civs and surrounded by grassland, but with no production capacity or decent specials. The way the terrain is rated is the same as the way the AI civs choose which city squares to work. Therefore, bloody awful!
I once had a start with the Mongols and the AI gave me four free techs and started me in a mix of desert and plains. Fair enough you might think, but my starting position was one square away from a four-special spot!
I, er, won easily.
Basically, then, it's not how a player would rate the start spot that determines free techs but how the computer rates it. But I'm sure that your tech cost depends upon the first one you choose to research, and those free techs are literally free!

[rah]

Yes, that's the real advantage of techs at the start, they don't count the beaker count. It's nice getting to research your 7th tech like it's your first.