What would you do?

[Mercantile]

We all know that trade specials are what wins MP games, well not entirely, but it certainly helps to have at least two in you capital and others spread out through your empire.

1) Would you accept a three special spot as your capital even if they weren't trade specials? ie game, ox and a coal. Yes i know later engineers can transform them into whatever.

2) Do you think it's better to hit the three special pattern or do you take two of them and build on the river bed instead?

3) In DP games, do you ever build you capital in a forest that insn't on a riverbed?

4) Is there ever an advantage other than being on a small island to build your city in the very first spot, even without specials?

5) Should your capital have access to water, or is it alright for one of your other cities to be the port for trade and ships?

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Do you shovel snow in your birkenstocks?

[Tizzy]

1) I uusally try to give my capital some sort of trade special, as I try to make that my SSC, because of lack of corruption. Because the SSC is early game developement, there's not much point in waiting for the engineers to transform non-trade specials, it's better to start off with them.
2)I never bothered too much with rivers until I started playing OCC - I always went for the best specials arrangement I could. Now I can't stress enough the importance of rivers! I'd MUCH rather have two specials and some river squares than a full complement of specials.
3)Not sure what a DP game is, but I don't like building in forest if I can possibly avoid it.
4)Never done this - I always wander about for a little while first.
5) I don't mind whether my capital has access to water or not. I just look for a good trade site for it, if that happens to be on the coast, fine, if it's not, that's fine too. I always have a couple of coastal cities nearby if my capital's landlocked though.

Tiz

[DaveV]

1. Yes. Production specials are nice to have, also.

2. Riverbed. I can put down a second city to use the third special, or I may find an even better spot.

3. I would if it had access to whales or another good special. I'm no DP expert, though.

4. Yes - rivers can almost count as specials; if you're lucky enough to have some rivered forest, you can get both shields and arrows.

5. I think it's a disadvantage to have your capital on the water. This leaves it vulnerable to diplo sabotage and barb pirates.

[Ming]

1) No... I would continue looking for a trade special, and probably fall to far behind. I'm willing to take that chance, because I simply can stand it when the early sciences take way too many turns to develop.

2) Depends on what the specials are. But, most of the time, I would probably build my first two cities with overlap so I can be flexible on how I use them.

3) Yes... all the time if it is in range of a whale.

4) Only if you are an ICS'er. I will always look a little bit, and then be pissed when I don't find anything good.

5) I look for trade specials for my capital. The lack of corruption in your capital means that early on in the game, most of your science will come from it. If their are no trade specials nearby, water isn't a bad alternative... but it has nothing to do with it being a port.

[rah]

Ditto
I'll even build on that trade special to get the extra because of the road, and the free food (gold) or free production (spice). The other settler can take advantage of the other specials.

RAH

[Mercantile]

Thanks for the replies guys, i am nowhere near as good as my cousin, and i noticed he builds on everything, ie gold , copper, etc. I guess this is easy to do in DP games, but normal production, there seems no point in the early game to put a city on a mountain, unless you need a choke point.

I am having a hell of a hard time trying to use dp to my advantage.

One more question, do you get both the defensive bonus for the forest and the riverbed if you build on one of these or is it just one or the other?

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Do you shovel snow in your birkenstocks?

[Ming]

I've always assumed that you do. But, I've never done the extensive testing (and I haven't seen anybody else post on the topic) to prove that it is indeed the case.

However, I've had some units in cities that I have built on river forest squares defend against near impossible odds

[DaveV]

I'm pretty sure you do get the bonus twice, so a fortified vet phalanx on a river/forest combo would defend at 2 * 1.5 (vet bonus) * 1.5 (fortified bonus) * 1.5 (river bonus) * 1.5 (forest bonus) = 10.125. It would take a couple of vet crusaders to take him out.

River/forest or river/swamp is actually better than hills (bonus 2.25 vs bonus 2). I've seen people report rivers running through mountains on created maps; the defense bonus there would be 4.5!

I will build cities on gold, iron, or 1-food river specials in 1x production. Not one of my first few cities, since it will never grow very much, but it can provide a defensive stronghold that supports its own units and provides some trade arrows or extra shields.

[Mercantile]

Sheesh, i guess that is a way to stop a raging Warmonger then

Dave, in dp games, one can put his second and third city on a gold or wine, and be the first to Monarchy. From there one can expand expand expand.

However, this may not work for most of you, as i tend not to win too many MP games

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Do you shovel snow in your birkenstocks?

[Ming]

Heck... In DP games, I will Always put my capital on gold if I see any at the starting location. I'll let my second city crank out all the settlers.

[cavebear]

A test: Well, I built 2 cities' one on river and one on river/forest. In each city, I put a fortified Musketeer. Outside each city, I put a Marine. None were vets.

I wanted units strong enough to eliminate any rounding of small bonuses. In each case, each Marine attacked his adjacent city. I ran the test 5 times. The Marines won all battles. However, their damage was significantly different.

Against the river/forest city, the Marine ended up:
.5 yellow, .2 red, .5 yellow, .3 red, and .3 yellow.

Against the river-only city, the Marine ended up:
.5 green, 1.0 green, .7 yellow, .9 green, 1.0 green.

The best Marine result against the river/forest city was more severe damage than the worst Marine result against the the river-only city.

It seems clear that double terrain squares provide the defensive benefits of both terrains.

[Mercantile]

Thanks Cavebear. I wasns't sure. It sure means that in dp games, river forest is the way to go. Or as Dave stated, perhaps a river through a mountain

[Matthew]

In single production trade specials are not nearly as important, because a couple roads van make up for it. and building on river grassland is a real good deal, allowing 2 science per turn immediately if the other worker is on a river or road. In 1x1x in short, you don't have to wander around in search of specials, but you can more easily afford to.

I disagree that it is necessarily bad to build your capital where you will have a lot of shield production instead of a lot of trade, even in double production. If you follow a strategy that is not quite so used, for example if you don't insist on getting HG or MC, you can probably make darn good use of those shields. Especially if you have a good food resource to go along with it.

If you're playing on a large enough map, so science is slower, you may even be able to get MC or JSB by making good use of these resources. Just try yo build your second city by trade resources or by the sea so you will have some good trade. Send out two explorers from each city to try to find some decent trade resources near by while cranking out a lot of settlers from the shield and food rich city. You may be able to grow fast enough this way to catch up in the race to MC even if you don't get philo first, and are a bit late to Monarchy. And those shields in your capital will help you build the wonder also.

In one game I played I didn't have any good trade resource, just some fish for one city, and good shields for another. My first wonder was the lighthouse, and I was nowhere near in the race for MC. But I had managed to expand incredibly fast. And I wound up stealing Monotheism from the player that got it first, and then dip raped the city he had building it. I'm not sure which, but one of us got MC, and the other JSB. But I had control of about 80% of the land in a three player game.

In short, the key isn't necessarily to find a certain type of resource so much as to make use of what you do have.

[Blaupanzer]

1) Yes, not all cities have to be trade, but get second down in a hurry.

2) Go for the riverbed.

3) Don't do DP, but build in forest all the time on 1x, if another advantage can be derived.

4) Reason to drop a capital on first turn is to get science started. So go for early drop if trade help is available (e.g., river or roadable grassland and two settlers).

5)Water access can work against you early due to pirates and late due to quick invader access. So it's not critical. On the other hand, never hurts.

[Ming]

You should always play the cards you are dealt. The trick is making the right call early enough. There is nothing worse than hunting for that "trade" special that just isn't there.

If you have been given production specials... find a way to win with them. If you have been given food specials... find a way to win with them.

The trick is to not get locked into a set strategy that use every time.

As Matthew as pointed out, find a way to win with what you do have.