Perfectionists Anonymous

[Hannibal3]

I have been playing Civ II for about two years now. Unfortunately, I seem to have a problem. Usually games end with me having launched a space ship in the early twentieth century, most of the AI civs are allied against me, and there's usually one civ I've taken huge bites out of. I think the trouble is that I tend to focus too much internal improvements. I really didn't have that much of a problem with it until my uncle (a Civ I vet) took over the whole world by the discovery of Gunpowder in Civ II on his first try. Then I have a friend who just got it and when I found out how quickly in the game he conquered some people, I realized I needed help...

So I have a few questions about your own methods:

A. How quickly do you found your first 5 cities? (In turns)

B. Will you attack an enemy immediately after discovering them even if you haven't got the force to take them immediately?

C. After taking over a civilization, how long do you wait before attacking the next? (What I mean is how soon do you start war preparations?)

D. When on an isolated land mass, how quickly do send out a ship to explore new continents? And when exploring new continents, what units do you take along with you?

E. When do you start building Marketplaces?

F. When you build a wonder, do you use your big production cities for the wonder, or do you leave them to produce units?

G. When do you start building tile improvements?

H. In the very early years before Gunpowder, what units do you find preferable for taking out walled cities?

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"...The highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans; next is to attack their alliances; next to attack their army; and the lowest is to attack their fortified cities." - Sun Tzu

[Zagbo]

A. As fast as is possible. This means build, fortify with one unit (warrior or Phalenx depending how close I think others are) then build settler. repeat. By city 3 or four I will start to build second and third defensive units.

B. I NEVER attack until i'm ready, and because I like it this way I usually wait until the AI attacks first or steals something.

C. continue on straight away. As I said I ususally wait till later in the game anyway, so once you have production geared to war, you might as well keep going.

D. when all the land on that continent is used for my cities, then I send a horse, chariot or knight with a settler. Build at the first good site found, then continue to explore.

E. After Temples, and depending on city growth rates after Aquaducts too. Money is an issue which drives this.

F. Normally try and have two or three cities producing wonders. The most productive one and a couple of others

G. Roads immediately (trade IS EVERYTHING) on those tiles being used, until five cities then usually have two settlers per three cities doing improvements.

H. Veteran Dragoons. If I'm in a war before I have dragoons I will ignore cities with walls.

Hope this helps.

PS. Who am I and what value is this advice? I win 90% of Diety games, and regularly do a OCC in sub 1900. And I lurk a bit

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Hannibal3 on 09-27-2000 08:46 PM A. How quickly do you found your first 5 cities? (In turns)

Depends. If I'm ICSing, as fast as I can build the additional settlers. I might pause along the way to build roads between the cities but not much more. If I'm Perfectionating, a little longer. Turns is hard to say. If it takes 3 turns to build a warrior , 14 to build a settler, 2 to move to the next site, and another 3/14 to get to the fifth settler, your talking around 40 moves total.

quote: B. Will you attack an enemy immediately after discovering them even if you haven't got the force to take them immediately?

Since I play MGE, I try to avoid conflict until I have an overwhelming force.

quote: D. When on an isolated land mass, how quickly do send out a ship to explore new continents? And when exploring new continents, what units do you take along with you?

I play on mostly small worlds which pretty much eliminates multiple continents/land masses.

quote: E. When do you start building Marketplaces?

If I'm ICSing, never. Well, maybe way late in the game. Otherwise, I pretty much go warrior, settler, temple, phalanx/settler, marketplace/library.

quote: F. When you build a wonder, do you use your big production cities for the wonder, or do you leave them to produce units?

I try to go for big production cities but I also use the other cities to produce caravans for wonder building so the acutal wonder site in not that critical.

quote: G. When do you start building tile improvements?

In ICS, rarely ever except for roads. Maybe a mine here and there to help with unit production. In PE (Perfectionist Expansionism), roads immediately, irrigation when I've got a good handle on happiness. In OCC, STP (Sooner Than Possible). I also jump at Refigeration when it becomes available and improve the farmland ASAP.

quote: H. In the very early years before Gunpowder, what units do you find preferable for taking out walled cities?

Enough diplomats to destroy the city walls and then any two movement unit, e.g. Elephants/Crusaders.

Sorry this is so long. Hope it helps.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[SCG]

A) I'm one who (unless OCCing) will try and get my first few cities down pretty quickly. Depends on the map size and available terrain and how quickly i get republic as to how many cities i have before i stop and consolidate/improve.

B) I don't like to attack without diplomats to back me up (bribe units for defense, cities to expand). So I'll usually sentry a warrior at a bottleneck to, well, bottle them up until I'm ready to deal with them. If they are aggressive, I'll do a controlled retreat or move a couple good defensive units to good terrain to enforce the blockade.

C) My economy is the most important part of my war machine, so in that sense, I never stop preparing for war. I'm always looking for those bargain-basement prices on cities. Also, since more cities often means a stronger economy, I tend to come out of wars stronger than I was before the war.

D) I always try and get a trireme with a settler and a diplomat out before I've completely covered my home continent so that I don't have idle settlers while I am out exploring for new settlement sites. Diplomats are my unit of choice for exploring, because of their ability to get others to do the fighting for him.

E) ASAP. Not only do they bring in extra gold, they help maintain order and facilitate WLTxD.

F) Depends on the wonder. If its a global wonder, i'm more likely to place it in a city with high production, especially if I'm not worried about the AI beating me to it. Otherwise, I'll often build caravans in the high production cities to help speed along the wonders in the city of choice.

G) Depends on the improvements - I'll put down roads initially to connect cities as I found them and to increase trade. I'll throw in irrigation as needed until i make republic, and then i stop expanding and start making more wholesale changes to the landscape to better celebrate.

H) diplomats. and you get the buildings and defenders as well



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Sleep is a luxury and I don't have Shakespeare's Theatre in my back yard.

[Carolus Rex]

I only give my puny advice to the questions I feel can be answered in a few words. Some of the others are too broad and depend too much on the situation at hand to keep it short. Here we go...

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Hannibal3 on 09-27-2000 08:46 PM</font> D. When on an isolated land mass, how quickly do send out a ship to explore new continents? And when exploring new continents, what units do you take along with you?

I try to explore ASAP.

I. Diplos
II. Horsemen (or other 2 move unit)

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Hannibal3 on 09-27-2000 08:46 PM</font> E. When do you start building Marketplaces?

In conquest games, never!

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Hannibal3 on 09-27-2000 08:46 PM</font> F. When you build a wonder, do you use your big production cities for the wonder, or do you leave them to produce units?

I build caravans and caravans only. Which cities to build in depends on where I want to build the wonder. That city should be fast to reach from nearby cities. A centre city is also more difficult to reach for your opponent.

quote: <font size=1>Originally posted by Hannibal3 on 09-27-2000 08:46 PM</font> H. In the very early years before Gunpowder, what units do you find preferable for taking out walled cities?

I'm surprised noone has mentioned the Super Ironclad (takes out musketeers too), especially if opponent has GW. By land, diplos to tear down walls then Crusaders or better. If opponent has GW and it's not a waterworld, I think I would go for "warrior to musketeers"-strat.

Edited part: Super Ironclads are difficult to have pre-Gunpowder! But I like them a lot, so they remain!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited September 28, 2000).]

[Carolus Rex]

Since I messed up the quotes when I edited the last post I don't want to get in there and edit again.

In response to H:

I mostly play no city bribe games. If bribing of cities is allowed I would try that first.

Edited: I seem to have a hard time getting "pre-gunpowder"...

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited September 28, 2000).]

[Simpson II]

Hannibal3,

Hey, there's nothing wrong with sitting back and building an empire! Early-momentum is often effective, but equally, so is letting others fight it out while you sit back and go to AC. Many very good players almost always go for AC rather than conquest. But do have fun experimenting!

A. As quickly as I can. I build warriors for happiness, then send out the settlers.

B. If I find them in the first 10 turns then perhaps. Otherwise not until my initial expansion is over and I have the beginnings of an army.

C. Playing aggresively, as long as it takes to mass a decent invasion force. Often, early on, you will not loose many units, so the next invasion becomes an extension of the first. However, I usually don't start wars, so it doesn't apply.

D. Not as quickly as I should! Hopefully about the time I finish my initial expansion. I would usually take diplomats, though explorers have their place.. usually circumnavigating the poles.

E. When I'm ready to celebrate. Otherwise they're not worth it; 2 gold a turn for 80 shields is a pathetic ROI! I would build caravans or settlers instead. Early on, IMHO, the only things that are worthwhile are growth and military.

F. I almost always use caravans to build wonders, so I don't find a conflict. When playing a really aggresive game, wonders just tend to slow you down.

G. Roads when my cities are being founded. Irrigation and more roads when I'm ready to start really growing. Mines when I have spare time.

H. Diplomats, I'm afraid. Kill the capital and bribe the remaining cities. It makes it all a bit easy, but then again the end result isn't really in doubt against the AI. Otherwise veteran crusaders can often do the job.

[kcbob]

quote: Originally posted by Dry on 09-28-2000 12:47 PM C. I never attack any civ. Its they who declare war (sneak attack). I am usualy at war with 2 civs. They seems to hate me?!? I am pretty sure its is related to the land surface I control.

Are you playing MGE? I'd bet that's the problem with your AI opponents. Either that or you insulted their daughter's honor.

Carolus... I missed the thread that described the Super Ironclad. What is it? How do you build one? What's the advantage? Thanks in advance for your prompt response to this question. BTW. I'm with you... Na4?


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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[DaveV]

kcbob - I'll respond for Carolus, since he and I just finished a long MP session and it's early morning for him now.

The basic premise behind the super ironclad is to build the Lighthouse, then discover Steam Engine before anyone else discovers Magnetism. You can then use the Lighthouse to produce veteran ironclads, which have a very nice attack factor, especially considering that they ignore city walls. The time window may be pretty narrow, but if you can produce a dozen or so of these babies, it can have a decisive impact.

[Dry]

I am only 1/2 a deity player, (on huge map only, but raging hordes, no reload).

A. I don't know, let me think... I usually have 2, 4 then 8 cities.
2 cities on turn 3;
4 cities around turn 25 (?);
8 cities around turn 45 (?);
So the 5th city must come around turn 35-40 I guess.

B. No

C. I never attack any civ. Its they who declare war (sneak attack). I am usualy at war with 2 civs. They seems to hate me?!? I am pretty sure its is related to the land surface I control.

D. As soon as possible. I *need* to expand. I usually explore with diplos.

E. Surely not with only 1 gold income; surely with 4+ income. In cities with 2-3 income: depends, as SCG said, they help maintain order and WLTx... but only if you already produce luxury: 50% of 0 = 0 , so... well, it depends.
But I still wonder if marketplace is the first improvement to build after temple, or aren't libraries better... I still don't know.

F. I also have 3-4 wonder cities, I basicaly agree with kcbob: it is not that important: caravan rules and I don't like having a prod. city locked in a WOW building, so prod cities build caravans and stockpile them somewhere.
I prefer 'strategical' sites to 'production' sites:
HG: in my capital. I want early WLTK day in a city without corruption.
War wonders: (SunTzu, Leo, GW) in a city in the deep hart of my empire, the most difficult to take, far away from borders/coast.
1 city Research wonders: (Colossus, Galileo, Newton) in a city with most trade possible (usually rivers).
Shakespeare: always a difficult compromise: it is the city where my homefleet will be homed. City must: have good production, be on the coast, have a naval strategic position, be easy to defend/retake from land.
Other WOWs: I like to place them in realistic/historical cities (no game interest, just for fun)
Hoover: in a city on a river or near a mountain/hill square.
Magellan: in a port city
SoL: port city
Eiffel: River city or capital
...

G. The 2 first settlers a city produce will found new cities, the 3rd one is the 'tile improver'. The city may now grow, starting with a temple.

H. Diplo

[Carolus Rex]

Thanks Dave! Now, if you only could be as kind and gentle in our game...

The time span is short, especially if we're talking pre-gunpowder as this thread does. If your opponent has the Workshop their importance dies with conscription, if not they last a little longer (until he has built the riflemen the standard way).

It also works without Lighthouse, but then you have to go for warrior code and feudalism to build STWA. Build non-vet ironclads and pick off barbs or exploring units on your way to the enemy. The Academy works for sea units too, i.e. they get vet status if they win a battle.

The final touch is Magellan's. If you have LH too, your Super Ironclads have 7 (!) movement points...

You also need triremes or caravels to ship the invasion force as the Super Ironclads only empty the cities.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited September 29, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

Carolus.......music to my ears!

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SG (2)

[Hannibal3]

Okay, I've done a little bit of experimenting with the advice I was given. Taking my time and being a perfectionist is starting to seem more appealing.

The problem is that I keep finding these civs on their own lands way out where I couldn't send sufficient forces and rooting them out is a nightmare. And the worst is when they hiding behind someone else because then they can compete technologically with me. That is what I hoped to avoid by being expansionist...

At least when I was being perfectionist, I was usually on top of science. When I was being an expansionist, I found myself frequently entering into conflicts where I couldn't back up my forces. Also, the other civs were advancing technologically much faster than I was. I spent all my time building an army and fell behind on technology. I think maybe I prefer holding off until I can effectively blitzkrieg the enemy. I like mobilizing huge air forces and ground troops in order to attack the enemy.

I guess I'm just a scenario person at heart.

But maybe there's some hope still...

Maybe I should try being expansionist on a small map first.

Maybe I should play with only a few civs.

One more question. When you start building your first 5-10 cities... will you just hunt around to find an area with the most resources? or in those early years will any decent area do just to get the foundation built?

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"...The highest realization of warfare is to attack the enemy's plans; next is to attack their alliances; next to attack their army; and the lowest is to attack their fortified cities." - Sun Tzu

[kcbob]

I take my time somewhat when building my first cities. I don't wait until I get 3 or 4 special resource squares per city. 1 or 2 will do it.

As for those far away civs, try diplomats and bribe them. If it's early enough in the game, the AI won't be in Democracy yet. That's extremely irritating. To travel that far only to discover you can't even incite. AARRGGHH!!

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[KaiserIsak]

To me, it looks like all of u r over-estimating the AI.

I suppose u dont play multiplayer, cuz then this is probably wont work

A) Build them as fast as possible. U wont need defence in your cities that early on anyways, if some barbarians or other civs invade u (happends very rarely), then there is no big deal to restart, since its still early. If u find yourself on an island, then u can cool down even more on the defence, especially if u r playing without barbarians. Build only settlers, settlers and settlers.

B) I always attack at once, there is no real point in waiting if u can attack them and weak them early on.

C) I useally find myself in war with everybody, so i attack everybody as soon as possible.

D) I useally build ships in the cities central in my empire at once all the terrain around them is already colonized, and it will take to long to send the settlers the long way. Then i continue building settlers in also this cities.

E) I never build them in this time scale. Build settlers and sometimes wonders, triremes and caravans.

F) The production does´nt really matter to much, what matters more is the location. Build the wonders in the middle of your empire, and use your border cities (which useally have lower production) to build military units. Also try to get some military from huts, thats very usefull

G) I never build them on my border, the settlers there is better used to expand my empire, but as once as the border have moved some, i start to build tile improvments with the settlers who wait for ships. After a while i would try to have one settler for each city, consentrating on tile improvements for that city.

H) On chieftain, there is something wrong if the enemies is even able to get a city wall before they´re conquered. On harder levels like deity, i would useally wait with the walled cities till the end, and then use crusaders, elephants or whatever i have. I loose a lot of troops on this, but its the easiest way if you dont care to build diplomats (i never build them myself, wasted production in a city who can produce a settler)


And for the extra question i would try to build the cities as close as possible, they dont need to many good squares. It seems to me that its a very common mistake to build the cities to far away from each other. It really does´nt matter if the cities steal some squares from each other in the start, cuz the cities r so small anyways that they have enuff. And the start is everything in civ.


I hope this helps