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  • #31
    don Don, you cannot demand tribute if your government is a democracy or a republic, so setting up long term alliances is all the more critical. Some of the early strategies of OCC revolved around building the Statue of Liberty so you could drop out of democracy for a turn to demand tribute. This is no longer recommended since you loose a turn of science.

    Comment


    • #32
      Well here it is 1837 landing:

      OCC#2

      Trying for Patent Fast Start

      3700 -
      3650 - Monarchy (government) - start to mine home city square
      3500 - hut Archers - OttawaLiverpool founded - building Settler
      3200 - Currency - city square mined
      3150 - hut 50 gold - rush complete Settler
      3100 - Settler - rush complete Warrior
      3050 - Warrior - OttawaLiverpool now Size 2 - buiding second Warrior
      ---- French Civilisation destroyed by Barbarians - Hooray
      3000 - contact English Settler - exchange Masonry for Map Making - Alliance
      2950 - Warrior - start Colossus
      2900 - share maps with English (Lond 2; York 1)
      2850 - hut Horseback Riding
      2750 - Wine now roaded Settler heading home
      2700 - OttawaLiverpool now 3 (Settler has 'b'ed) f:8 t:9 S:6

      Any comments on this approach to initial growth
      Acknowledge original idea due to Smash & arii

      2650 - Writing
      2500 -
      2450 - Wine mined giving f:7 t:11 s:7
      ---- Tacitus: most powerful: Canadians:1 English:3
      ---- Barbarian Archer wastes self against NONE Archer fortified on Northern mountain Choke
      2150 - Literacy - offered both Trade & The Republic (gnash teeth) choose The Republic
      2150 - OL size 3 f:7 t:11 S:8 - half way to Col
      ---- Aztec Chariot (damaged) contacts us - Uncooperative - give Literacy - Peace - 100 gold
      2050 - contact English - no money
      2000 - hut Mathematics
      1800 - rush complete Colossus
      1750 - Colossus - switch to Library f:6 t:17 s:9 - met Aztec Diplo ...
      1750 - contact (cordial) Aztecs - exchange Monarchy for Mysticism - Masonry for Alliance - refuse maps
      1750 - contact (cordial) English - 25 gold
      1650 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - no joy
      1650 - contact (cordial) English - 25 gold
      1550 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - still no maps
      1550 - contact (cordial) English - 25 gold
      1550 - rush complete Library
      1500 - Library, The Republic, Revolution
      1450 - Republic - 20% luxuries needed until Temple
      1450 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - swap maps
      1450 - contact (cordial) English - 25 gold
      1350 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - 75 gold
      1350 - contact (cordial) English - 50 gold
      1350 - rush complete Temple - crank up for WLTSD
      1350 - Barbarian Archer to NE
      1300 - start WLTSD @ size 3
      1300 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - 50 gold
      1300 - contact (cordial) English - no joy
      ---- Pliny - Happiness - Aztecs:1 English:2 Canadians:5 (there are two more out there)
      1250 - rush complete Diplomat - Barbarians getting closer
      1200 - realize I have forgotten to switch to food production - duh!
      1200 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - 25 gold
      1200 - contact (cordial) English - no joy
      1100 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - 25 gold
      1100 - contact (cordial) english - no joy
      1000 - Philosophy, Construction, rush complete Coloseum
      1000 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - 25 gold
      1000 - contact (enthusiastic) English) - 50 gold
      0975 - bribe Barbarian Archer (NONE) - 61 gold
      0975 - end WLTSD @ size 8 f:17 t:39 s:12(-2) sci:46 tax rate:1.1.8
      0950 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - 50 gold
      0950 - contact (cordial) English - "Our patience wears thin"
      0925 - contact allies - share maps with both
      0900 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - 50 gold
      0900 - contact (cordial) English - "Opwt"
      0900 - rush complete Marketplace
      ---- Aztecs develop Currency
      0875 - had to bribe another Barbarian Archer (OL) - 61 gold will disband him at OL
      0850 - conacted by Aztec Diplomat - swapped Philosophy & Construction for Iron Working & The Wheel
      0850 - contact (worshipful) Aztecs - no joy
      0850 - contact (receptive) English - give Construction - end of conversation (Worshipful)
      0800 - Archer returns to OL - Warrior disbanded
      0800 - contact our worshipful allies - nothing from Aztecs - 50 from English
      0775 -
      0750 - rush complete Aqueduct
      0725 - Trade (at last), Aqueduct - guess what I'm building now?
      0725 - set up for WLTSD
      0700 - WLTSD starts @ size 8
      ---- Exchange The Republic for Pottery from the English
      0650 - Caravan (Silk) sets off for London
      0625 - contact worshipful allies - Aztecs 50, English "Opwt"
      ---- Ur (Babylonian) builds Pyramids
      0600 - Caravan (Gems) sets off for Tlatelolco
      0525 - end WLTSD @ size 11 (a few food problems on the route)
      0500 - Caravan (Coal) set off for somewhere - commodity not wanted
      0500 - OL @ size 11 f:22 t:49 s:15(-2) sci:43 tr:2.2.6
      0500 - contact worshipful allies - Aztecs 50 gold - English "Opwt"
      0475 - Medicine
      0450 - Food Caravan
      0425 - Aztec trireme sighted
      0400 - complete circumnavigation of South Pole - not a single hut!
      0375 - contact worshipful allies - Aztecs: 100, English: 25
      0350 - Food Caravan#2
      0325 - incremental rush FC
      0300 - Food Caravan#3, The University
      0300 - contact worshipful Aztecs - get Polytheism (Oh goody!)
      0300 - contact enthusiastic English - 25 gold
      0250 - contact worshipful Aztecs - 100 gold
      0250 - contact cordial English - "Opwt"
      0250 - food Caravan#4
      ---- York (English) builds Great Library
      ---- English switch to Copernicus' Observatory - Yikes!
      0200 - no joy from allies
      0175 - Food Caravan #5
      0175 - Gems @ Tlatelolco - 346 Gold
      0175 - incremental rush Caravan
      0150 - Seafaring, Food Caravan#6 apply to Copernicus' Observatory
      0150 - our allies have both "Opwt"
      ---- SG2 joins the hunt
      0125 - Copernicus' Observatory
      0125 - coal to Canterbury - 130 gold
      0125 - London just decided it doesn't want Silk anymore!
      0125 - give Aztecs Trade & English Iron Working both now worshipful
      0100 - our worshipful allies have empty purses!!!!!!!!!
      0075 - Food Caravan#1
      0075 - hold caravan going to London - advance about to happen
      0050 - Engineering
      0050 - Bl**dy Barbarians appear INSIDE my choke defenses!
      0050 - Silk to London 168 gold
      0050 - contact allies - English: 50
      0025 - Barbarian archer on hill takes Archer fortified on mountain down to mere slice of red - get vet status
      -----------------------
      0001 - Food Caravan#2
      0001 - worshipful allies - Aztecs:25, English:50
      ---- Aztecs build Hanging Gardens
      0020 - Food Caravan#3
      0040 - Food Caravan#4
      0040 - Barbarian Leader - 150 gold
      0060 - Food Caravan#5, Invention
      0060 - allies - Aztecs:50, English:25
      0080 - food Caravan#6
      0100 - Food Caravan#7 - 6 Caravans = Shakespeare's Theatre
      0100 - allies - 50 gold each
      0100 - bribed Aztec Catapult on my doorstep (came round the pole)
      0120 - Shakespeare's Theatre
      0120 - sold Colloseum
      ---- Sioux build Lighthouse
      0140 - Banking - no Demo on list
      0140 - food Caravan#2
      0140 - disband Catapult buy Harbour
      0160 - Harbour
      0160 - allies - Aztecs:50, English:Opwt
      0180 - Food Caravan#3
      0200 - Food Caravan#4 (SG2 wants to buy MPE[to get more alliances, techs & cash] - SG1 holds out for INC)
      0200 - allies - Aztecs:50, English:Opwt
      0220 - Food Caravan#5, Theory of Gravity
      0240 - allies - Aztecs:50, English:"Opwt"
      0260 - Food Caravan#6
      0280 - allies - Aztecs:50, English: give Invention & Banking get 50
      0300 - Food Caravan#7, Democracy, Revolution, Democracy!
      0320 - allies - Aztecs:50, English:maps
      0340 - Food Caravan#8 = INC (except that finger fumble leaves 1 caravan outside)
      0360 - last caravan goes in for INC
      0380 - Isaac Newton's College, Navigation
      0380 - allies - Aztecs:50, English:50
      0420 - Food Caravan#1
      0440 - Sanitation, allies - Aztecs:50, English:100
      ---- Cardiff completes KRC
      0480 - Food Caravan#2
      0500 - Bridge Building
      0520 - Food Caravan#3, allies - Aztecs:50, English: give Navigation get 100
      ---- Tenochtitlan completes MPE
      0560 - Food Caravan#4, Physics
      0600 - allies - Aztecs:50, English:100
      0620 - Food Caravan#5, Gunpowder
      ---- English came to swap for Mono - we refused - they give us 50
      0660 - Food Caravan#6
      0680 - Magnetism, allies - Aztecs:50, English:"Opwt"
      0700 - Food Caravan#7, OttawaLiverpool now @12 f:27 t:81 s:15(-3) sci:292 tr:1.0.9
      0740 - Copper Caravan (London bound), Chemistry
      0760 - Bank
      0780 - allies - Aztecs: Monatheism & 50, English swap Physics for Warrior Code and give 50
      0800 - Explosives,
      0820 - University
      0860 - Spice Caravan, Economics, allies - 50 each
      0900 - Galleon
      0920 - Metallurgy
      0940 - Engineer
      0960 - Spice Teotihuacan 240
      0980 - Engineer, Steam Engine, WLPD size 10
      ---- London build MC
      ---- Barbarian raiding party on doorstep!
      1020 - Sewer System
      ---- Cardiff builds GW
      1040 - City Walls
      1060 - Railroad - allies - nothing
      1140 - Electricity
      1160 - Food Caravan#8 = Darwin
      1180 - Darwin's Voyage - Refrigeration, Industrialisation
      1180 - Copper to London - 86, allies - Aztecs:25, English:50
      ---- contact Babylonian elephant - peace
      1200 - Supermarket, Feudalism
      ---- York completes Magellan
      1260 - Gold Caravan,
      1280 - The Corporation
      1300 - Wine Freight
      ---- Tenochtitlan builds Oracle
      1340 - Food Freight#1, Steel, WLPD stops @ 21
      1360 - allies - english:100
      1380 - Refining
      1400 - coal Freight
      1420 - Electronics
      ---- Peasants revolt near OL
      1460 - Food Freight#2, Combustion
      1500 - Automobile, Cruiser (now Vet)
      1510 - Gold Caravan to Nottingham 254
      1520 - Mass Production
      1530 - Mass Transit
      1540 - Conscription, allies Aztecs:25, English:50, Babylonians refuse Alliance
      1560 - Stock Exchange, 150 for Barbarian Diplo, Coal to London 157
      1570 - Superhighways, Chivalry,
      1580 - Wine to Babylon 722
      1590 - Silk Freight, Leadership,
      1600 - Aztecs - nothing, English swap Steam Engine for Communism get 100 gold
      1610 - Wine Freight, Atomic Theory
      1620 - Food Freight#3, bribe Babylonian Caravan (Beads)
      1630 - Tactics,
      1640 - Food Freight#4
      1650 - Machine Tools, go for Recycling - only viable alternative is Flight
      1660 - Food Freight#5
      1670 - Recycling, contact Celts accept Peace for 200 gold - give them Railroad
      1680 - Food Freight#6
      1690 - Food Caravan#7, Miniaturization
      1700 - Recycling Centre,
      1710 - Offshore Platform, Computers,
      1710 - Silk to London 321
      1720 - Research Lab, Flight
      1730 - Factory; OL size:23, f:50 t:147 s:54(-4) sci:896 (3 Eins) tr:3.0.7
      1730 - Wine to Tlatelolco 275
      1740 - Spice Caravan, Radio
      ---- Coventry grants Women's Suffrage
      1750 - Food Freight#8
      1752 - Food Freight#9, Advanced Flight
      1754 - Food Freight#10
      ---- Tenochtitlan builds SoL
      1756 - Food Freight#11, Mobile Warfare
      1758 - Food Freight#12
      1760 - Food Freight#13, Rocketry
      1762 - Food Freight#14
      1764 - Food Freight#15, Nuclear Fission, Beads to Hastings 92
      1766 - Food Freight#16
      1768 - Food Freight#17, Robotics
      1770 - Manufacturing Plant production 74 - d*mm*t
      1772 - Food Freight#18, Space Flight
      ---- Coventry builds Eiffel Tower
      1774 - Apollo Program
      1776 - SSStructural#1, Nuclear Power, Spice to Ur 420
      1780 - SSStructural#3, Plastics
      1786 - SSStructural#6, Espionage
      1792 - SSStructural#9, The Laser
      1798 - SSStructural#12, Superconductor, lose Engineer to hunger
      1800 - SSStructural#13, lose Engineer to hunger
      1802 - SSStructural#14, city shrinks to 24 - so I learnt something the hard way
      1804 - SSStructural#15, Combined Arms
      1816 - SSComponent#6, Fusion Power
      1822 - SSModule#3, Launch (1837 - a personal best)
      ---- Aztecs build SETI
      ---- Render self invulnerable and discover I forgot the Hydro-plant - curse loudly
      1837 - Land AC - Brian Mulroney the Cruel 35%

      I think I was lucky, got my tech tree in a muddle and lost a lot of time in the late opening, early middle game - but please comment.

      My stats for paul's table are:

      1837

      -3650 -1450 300

      -1750 -125 120 380 1180 1774

      -175 -125 -50

      66(63) -11(52) 62(120) 36(156) 15(171) 21(196) 15(211) 40(251)

      -525(size 11) 1340 - yes I know this is awful

      Thanks for the fun - I shall now try and read some more of your logs

      ------------------
      ____________
      Scouse Git[1]

      "CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
      "Our words are backed by empty wine bottles! - SG(2)
      "One of our Scouse Gits is missing." - -Jrabbit

      Comment


      • #33
        Sorry my spacebar is broken...but i have a game here that i began to record yesterday... it is very comparable to paul's i have a save att 2200BC i almost have republic... i have a lot of techs i really don't know how i got them but i did it is a very good game, please
        play it!

        sorry bout the space bar again email me if you want the save!

        Edited by Ming to correct screen problems
        And don't post again till you get it fixed.
        All you do is screw up the screen
        [This message has been edited by Ming (edited February 04, 2000).]
        I'm 49% Apathetic, 23% Indifferent, 46% Redundant, 26% Repetative and 45% Mathetically Deficient.

        Comment


        • #34
          Don Don, I see that you gave a lot of money to the AI. Now, I might just give them 50 if it was a real emergency, but giving them over 1000 gold in the course of one game is too much. It might be better to get a few turns of war and after you spent almost all your money on rushbuying something contact them again. They will then usually settle for science if you have less than 50 gold.

          About the gifts: I saw that the French captured some barb leaders so I knew they still had to have money. That's why I sometimes asked several turns in a row. Normally I don't ask gifts that often unless I'm pretty sure that they didn't give me all they had (or were willing to give).

          Comparison table updated to include Scouse Gits' log. Thanks for posting those stats at the end of your log. Unfortunately the turn intervals weren't always right, but that was not to difficult to correct because I made myself an Excel spreadsheet with all the years and turn numbers. When I have time I will see if I can make a html document out of it and post it on my website for future reference.
          [This message has been edited by Paul (edited May 06, 2000).]

          Comment


          • #35
            Paul,
            I did try to time my contacts with the English to times when I had less than 150 gold, and then they would demand science. But I can't control when they contact me and demand money (I believe the AI cheats on that point, peeking to see when you've got money).

            The English had Knights and I really didn't think I could stand against them. Bribing a couple of units to fight for me would've been just about as expensive as the 700 I paid for peace.

            I just felt paranoid about them coming down, tresspassing on my city squares (thus costing me science in a period where my science "budget" was tight @ 2 turns), pillaging my mined wine or farmland, possibly croaking my NONE Settler or an Engineer.

            Those are the decisions I hate, and perhaps I was overly paranoid given the AI of 2.42.

            CTG,
            Your space bar might be broken, but your enter key is not. Please edit your post to cut the line length! >:P grrr!

            Comment


            • #36
              A turn number table can now be found at http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/turns.htm

              [This message has been edited by Paul (edited May 06, 2000).]

              Comment


              • #37
                Hello all. Well I finally got some time to finish up my game. Much better than the previous one though I came in last or close to it. Knocked about 70 years off my personal best though.

                Okay here it is. I just realized I forgot a few techs, including math & astronomy. I'll probably have to edit this for clarity...

                Tech City
                Year Gold Gained Improvement Misc
                3700 0 BW, Alpha, CerBur, CoL, Mas, Mon
                3650 0 Monarchy, found Ottawa, start warrior
                3500 56 50gp(hut)
                3450 58 Warrior Start Coll
                3350 62 Curr
                3200 68 Trade(hut)
                3050 74 WC(hut)
                3000 176 Meet Aztec, get 100gp trib & peace
                2950 180 Map Meet English, give WC get Map, peace
                2700 191 Myst
                2350 219 Horseman(hut)
                2200 381 Pottery Capture barb leader
                2150 298 Collossus 50gp from Aztec and English
                2050 199 Build Granary
                1700 228 Writing Build Silk Caravan
                1450 264 Build Gems Caravan
                1350 276 Literacy
                1300 168 Marketplace
                1200 38 Library
                1200 145 Seafaring Aztecs, give Lit get Seafaring + 100gp
                1100 60 Harbor
                975 36 Phil, Repub Temple Revolution
                900 198 Iron English, give Repub & Trade, get Iron, alliance, 150gp
                850 204 Build Beads caravan
                800 214 English dissolve alliance
                750 428 Cons Gems Cara arrives in Nottingham, 208g
                725 435 Build Hides caravan
                700 440 Aztec declare war, start WLTCD(5)
                650 339 Walls end WLTCD(7)
                625 413 Aqueduct Silk cara arrives London, 202gp
                400 479 Banking Meet French, declare war
                375 487 English declare war
                350 699 Beads cara arrives in York, 204 gp
                325 316 Med Cope Hides caravan arrives in Texococo, 74gp, capture barb leader, 150gp
                225 173 Horseback Bank
                AD 1 239 Engineering Give English Seafaring & Const, get peace
                100 249 Sanitation
                160 65 Shakes Start WLTCD(10)
                200 71 Univ
                280 37 Sewer
                300 37 TheoryGrav
                320 43 Give Aztec Trade, Repub, get peace & map
                340 47 Build wine caravan
                380 53 Invention
                400 69 Give English Invention
                420 95 Give Aztec Invention, give French Invention, Sanition, Republic, get map
                440 121 Aztec declare war
                460 121 Navigation End WLTCD(21)
                520 205 Economics
                600 317 Demo Revolution, give Aztec Nav, Writing get peace
                620 41 Isaac Disc 3 turns
                640 109 Sneak attack by English, lose wine caravan
                680 177 Physics Major barb horde
                700 165 Stock Exchange
                760 73 University
                780 185 Give Aztec Banking & astronomy, give English Nav & Phy, get peace
                800 185 Magnetism build coal caravan
                840 297 Metallurgy Galleon Give French Seafaring, get peace
                880 409 Chemistry Build Gems Caravan
                900 771 coal caravan to Teothuacan, 250g
                940 891 Steam Eng build spice caravan
                980 1132 Give Aztec Wheel, Steam Eng, Univ, Gems Caravan to Texoco, 210
                1000 1240 RR
                1040 1299 Elec
                1060 443 Refrig, Explo Darwin Capture barb leader
                1080 449 Conscription
                1100 455 Engineers
                1120 449 Industrialization Supermerket 100gp(hut)
                1160 455 Corp Give English RR, Industrialization, Give Celts Gunpowder, Industrialization, get peace
                1200 411 Refining English getting in way, ask to leave, declare war
                1220 429 Factory Spice Caravan to Cardiff, 306g
                1240 535 Steel First pollution
                1260 636 Engineers
                1320 838 Combustion Forgot to decrease taxes
                1340 861 Wool caravan, 2nd pollution
                1360 862 Start WLTCD(19)
                1380 632 Automobile
                1400 597 Superhighways
                1420 603 Electronics 3rd pollution
                1440 609 build spice caravan, 4th pollution
                1460 282 Chivalry Hydro End WLTPD(21), 5th pollution
                1500 434 MassProd
                1510 459 MassTransit Caravan to Orleans, 168g, French declare war
                1520 532 food caravan
                1540 678 Chivalry
                1560 1514 Leadership Spice Caravan to Technochtitlan, 684g, 3 trade routes, 21, 21, 22
                1570 1590 Tactics Wool caravan
                1590 1677 Machine Tools
                1610 1801 MobileWarfare
                1630 2089 Miniaturization Wool caravan to Teotihuacan, 202g
                1640 1915 Platform
                1650 1950 Computers
                1660 1797 ResearchLab
                1670 1914 Robotics
                1690 2154 Flight Trade routes all at18
                1710 2099 NuclearFission
                1720 2045 ManuPlant Production at 88
                1730 2091 Radio
                1750 2146 AdvFlt Trade routes all at 16
                1754 2160 Rocketry sell temple
                1758 2263 NuclearPower sell granary
                1762 2417 Space Flt sell aqueduct
                1764 2432 Apollo sell sewer, all trade routes at 18
                1766 2552 Plastic Structurals
                1770 2609 Laser
                1774 2649 CombinedArms
                1778 2689 Supercond
                1782 2709 Fusion
                1788 2854 AmphWar
                1794 3109 Stealth French declare war, done with structurals start components
                1800 3279 Recyc
                1806 3534 GeneticEngr Done with comp, start mod, trade routes back to 16
                1812 554 Environ Finish SS & launch, expected 1827, trade routes back to 18
                1813 639 Fighter Some encroachment by French
                1815 809 Communisum Bomber
                1818 1064 Espionage Bomber
                1821 1303 GuerrilaWarfare
                1827 1547 Land AC

                AH has shrink shop open, and if you want advice from an Aussie who thinks he's a horse that likes having a gay Greek general riding his backside then that's still available. - Lancer

                Comment


                • #38
                  Now I use crtv it lets make spaces but it takes a while... hey Ming look on the bright side it will be hard for me to spam sorry about that I am getting a new keyboard tommorrow or Sunday... it will limit my posting.
                  [This message has been edited by Caesar the Great (edited February 04, 2000).]
                  I'm 49% Apathetic, 23% Indifferent, 46% Redundant, 26% Repetative and 45% Mathetically Deficient.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    SG(1),

                    You surprised me twice in your log, building a settler and revolting to republic without a temple or coliseum.

                    I've tried a few games of late where I did a WLT[Monarch]D to get an OCC Republic trade bonus, but it didn't seem to help. Has anyone used this tactic effectively? In this Whale/Wine game, it seemed like it might be a good idea as the high trade would allow a low luxury rate.... In this game, it is moot, but does anyone ever do a WLT[Despot]D to get food fast prior to Monarchy? (Probably not given we don't have marketplaces during construction of Colossus....food for thought.

                    CtG, the only time I'm in danger of breaking my space bar is when I'm angrily trying to get out of Anarchy fast without the Statue of Liberty due to a slip up. I was probably one of the few that read between the ears --I mean spaces

                    AU--just teasin'
                    Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep? [--Inspiration of Blade Runner]

                    "> > Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the reader who
                    >doesn't get it."--don't know.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      I launched last evening in 1776 (how patriotic) so baring any French funny business I will land in 1791; I was able to get financial assistance from the AIs for a long time, very surprising! (edit: the scary Frogs sneak attacked with two vintage fighter planes in 1788; reminded me of the Iraqi airforce during the Gulf War. I cleaned out all of their cities everytime they built a defender from my hidden northeastern mountain airbases; Babylonian allies tried to help a little so I gave them Space Flight and everything else except Super Conductor.)

                      I will edit in my log during the day.

                      Had some trouble with timing of WLTCD and having enough food available, and made a mistake with my third trade route, but overall I am pretty pleased with this one.

                      Civ Version MGE
                      3650 Monarchy, Gretzkyville (They should rename it after the Great One)
                      3450 Warrior; French – Writ vs Monarchy Ally for Masonry (Celts destroyed by Sioux)
                      3350 Russians – War (with their Settler – I’m scared)
                      3300 Warrior
                      3250 Hut 25
                      3200 Literacy
                      3100 Hut - Pottery; English, Maps vs Pottery, Ally for Literacy, share maps (is this MGE??)
                      3050 Hut - barb horse (get that weak sh*t outta here)
                      2950 Hut 50
                      2900 Library
                      2700 Currency
                      2450 Barb Leader 150 (by Paris, there are two - thanks Frogs)
                      2400 Barb Leader 150 (this was a huge break! Decided to use money on improvements after the Colossus is done)
                      2350 Construction
                      2300 Babs – give them a couple of techs; Ally, share maps, give me 100
                      2100 Hut – Horseback Riding
                      1850 Trade?
                      1800 Colossus
                      – Russians; cease fire, give techs, Ally, share maps, give me 50
                      1600 Coliseum (rushed)
                      1550 Sioux – give 50, give away techs, Ally, share maps, give me 250! Net 200
                      1500 Marketplace
                      1450 Republic
                      1400 Aquaduct; get Rep WLTCD (insufficient food)
                      1250 Caravan
                      1150 Settler to help irrigate; two more barb leaders 300!
                      1050 Caravan; Mysticism
                      0975 Caravan; England – give techs, trade maps, get 150
                      0950 Babs – give techs, trade maps, get 100
                      0925 Caravan
                      0900 Philosophy and University (Advance)
                      0875 Caravan
                      0800 Caravan
                      0725 Astronomy
                      0650 French; request war with Aztecs for 200… uh okay! Silk to London 154/+6; demand had changed
                      0625 University (improvement) ; Seafaring
                      0575 Harbor (back to WLTCD to get 12)
                      0550 Caravan; Babs – tech givaway, map trade, 50 to me
                      0525 Hides to Babylon 216/+9
                      0500 Medicine; Second Hides to Babylon 253/+9… WTF doesn’t give me 3 trade routes; D’oh – nothing else enroute, this will take a while
                      0450 Wheel
                      0375 Banking; Size 12? (Had been size 10 for a while)
                      0350 French – usual tech givaway, map trade, 50 to me.
                      0325 Engineering; Sioux – Warrior Code vs ?, Iron Working vs ?
                      0300 Copernicus; Russians destroyed by oppressive English Imperial warmongers
                      0250 Bank; Sanitation
                      0200 English – tech givaway, map trade, 200 to me
                      0175 Theory of Gravitational Stuff
                      0150 Sewer System; WLTCD; Babs – tech givaway, map trade, 150 to me
                      0075 Caravan
                      0050 Bridge Building (putting that extra settler to work!)
                      0025 Caravan
                      0001 Happy New Year!
                      0020 Caravan; Economics
                      0040 Wine to Babs 267 (finally trade route #3)
                      0060 Shakespeare’s Theater
                      0100 Invention; sell Coliseum (took three turns to find housing for the homeless people living there)
                      0120 Stock Exchange
                      0140 French; usual process, tech, map, 100 to me.
                      0160 Democracy, revolt until 0240! That is a long long time.
                      0280 Chemistry
                      0320 Gunpowder
                      0360 Isaac Newton’s School of Smarts, Navigation; Sioux 200; French 50; English 150; Babs 50 (AI not that smart)
                      0400 Caravan; Explosive cigars
                      0420 Caravan
                      0440 Van; Physics
                      0480 Dip; Magnetism
                      0500 Van
                      0520 Frigate; periodically over the next 50 turns I bribed barbs with my dip from the frigate
                      0540 Van; Metalurgy; Babs 50
                      0560 Bribe None Settler from Babs over by Aztecs(?); English 150
                      0580 Van; Electricity; Sioux 250!
                      0620 Steam Engine (contemplate Eiffel Tower)
                      0640 Engineer; (Romans Rip, that is 3 white civs)
                      0660 Engineer, Refrigeration, Gems 336; WLTPD
                      0680 Supermarche, Railroad
                      0720 Feudalism
                      0760 Industrialization; Sioux 250; Spice 196
                      0780 Van; Wool 62
                      0820 Corporation; Gold 290 (trade route, not total)
                      0860 Factory; Electronics
                      0880 English 200
                      0900 Hydro Plant
                      0920 Steel; Coal 248
                      0940 Walls (just in case) Wool 144
                      0980 Engineer; Combustion
                      1000 Van
                      1020 Atomic Theory
                      1040 Van; Size 23 (+/- a couple of turns)
                      1060 Van; Automobile
                      1080 Van; Sioux 250; English 100
                      1100 Superhighway; Babs 50
                      1120 Mass Production
                      1140 Mass Transit (for kicks)
                      1160 Van; Chivas Regal or Chivalry
                      1180 Van
                      1200 Van; Conscription
                      1220 Van
                      1240 Darwin’s; (I was waiting as long as possible to get the most beakers for the WoW) Leadership, Tactics; Wool 378, 487 Coal
                      1260 Barracks; Machine Tools
                      1280 Alpine
                      1300 Alpine; Mobile Warfare, barracks sold
                      1320 Van
                      1340 Van; Miniaturization
                      1360 Van (coal again)
                      1380 Van (wool again); Computers
                      1400 Research Lab
                      1420 Offshore Platform; Robotics; Coal 502
                      1440 Manufacturing Plant; Nuke Fission
                      1460 Van; French – want Conscription vs Polytheism, Okay. (should I build an elephant?)
                      1480 Van; Nuclear Power; Babs want Computers vs Communism, whatever, okay.
                      1500 Van
                      1510 Van; Laser; Wool 374
                      1520 Battleship because if you are going to take a turn to build a unit, go BIG
                      1530 Van; Flight
                      1540 Van
                      1550 Van; Radio
                      1560 Van
                      1570 Van; Adv Flight (no rocketry option)
                      1580 Van
                      1590 Van; Espionage
                      1600 Tired of building Vans, Start Seti for Apollo
                      1610 Rocketry
                      1630 Space Flight; Wool 200
                      1640 Apollo
                      1650 Structural; Plastics
                      1660 Structural; French want Tactics for Monotheism, okay, but I would have asked for something else…
                      1670 Structural; Combined Arms
                      1680 Structural
                      1690 Structural
                      1700 Structural; Superconductor; Aztecs ask for cease-fire, give tactics and conscription for peace, bribe unit.
                      1710 Structural
                      1720 Structural
                      1730 Structural; Amphibious Whatever
                      1740 Structural
                      1750 Structural
                      1752 Structural; Fusion Power
                      1754 Structural
                      1756 Structural
                      1758 Structural; Stealth – set science research to 0%
                      1760 Propulsion; Sell Lab
                      1762 Propulsion; Sell University
                      1764 Propulsion; Sell Library
                      1766 Fuel
                      1768 Fuel
                      1770 Fuel
                      1772 Solar Panels Module
                      1774 Life Support Module
                      1776 Habitation Module -> Launch
                      1777 Airport
                      1778 Stealth Fighter
                      1779 SAM
                      1780 SDI
                      1781 Port
                      1782 Barricks; French sneak attack with 2 fighters kills a couple of none chariots and some caravans - no big deal
                      1783 Tank - Stealth fighter eliminate local French defenders. Tanks, Alpines, and remaining 2 move units pillage French territory without risk of counter attack all remaining turns.
                      1784 Stealth Fighter
                      1785 Paratrooper (Sent to mountain fortress by Paris)
                      1786 Stealth Fighter
                      1787 Stealth Fighter
                      1788 Tank
                      1789 Stealth Fighter
                      1790 Stealth Fighter
                      1791 Land Alpha Centauri

                      Thanks for editing your post CtG, you may want to wait to post a log until after you get your new key board. Hitting ctrV over and over would suck!

                      [This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited February 09, 2000).]
                      Be the bid!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Victorious Greetings to two-eyed soft ones! Mighty Grigor scores early 19th century triumph over slothful manycitied AI.

                        Hi-lite Reel:

                        1850 Colossus
                        1450 Gov: Republic
                        700 Copernicus
                        475 size 12
                        275 Shakespeare
                        240AD size 17
                        300 Gov: Democracy
                        580 Newton
                        960 Refrig
                        1530 Computers
                        1756 Apollo
                        1821 Arrival

                        3700 To begin in glorious state of revolution
                        3650 gov: Monarchy. To found the city of Ottawa. Science: 8 turns
                        3500 to begin grape mine. Soft pink ones have taste for rotten grapes
                        3550 to build first Groaci warrior
                        3450 French.: to trade Mon for Write. Peace. Give Mas, CoL. Alliance
                        3300 to rushbuild second warrior. to begin Colossus
                        3250 Glorious capital at size 2 5 shields, 6 beakers. Science: 6 turns
                        3200 Currency
                        3100 Hut: barbs, slain by horse
                        2900 Trade. to begin 2nd grape mine.
                        2800 Size 3. 8 shields. 8 science. 4 tax
                        2650 Hut: 25 gold. Hut: 50 gold
                        2600 English: trade for Maps, Myst. Peace. Tribute: 50gp
                        2550 French: to give Maps. receive 50 gp
                        2350 2nd mine finished
                        2150 Literacy
                        2000 French: 25 gp. English Ignore
                        1900 Horse kills barb and becomes vet
                        1850 to finish Colossus. To feel ok about early game.

                        1750 Beads Caravan. Size 4. 15 beakers, 7 tax
                        1650 Gems Caravan
                        1600 French: WC. English: 100gp for Literacy
                        1550 Coal caravan
                        1500 Republic. Rev
                        1450 Library. Gov: rep

                        1400 Temple. WLTCD starts size 4. Coal to Rheims: 46 gp
                        1200 WLTCD ends size 7. Phil, Math
                        1150 Mkt. Aztecs: Peace To receive bitter rebuff from attempt to ally. To share maps. To see treacherous Aztec chariot coming under the pole!. To chortle as chariot scurries back home after discovery.
                        1100 Beads to Orleans: 192 gp
                        1050 build Gold caravan. Astro English: no ally.
                        1000 French: 75 gp. Build hides caravan
                        950 Build Hides caravan. To start Copernicus
                        925 Hut: 50gp
                        900 Hut: Barbs. To defeat with brave Archer. To become vet
                        875 French: Banking for Phil. Gift: 100gp. Celts: war over 100gp
                        850 Construction. Hides to Rheims: 136 gp. Babylonians: war over 50 gp
                        600 Seafaring. Hides to Rheims: 136 gp
                        725 To discover Barbs attempt sneaky landing near Ottawa. To kill with Chariot. To become Vet. To bravely place settler on mine to avoid pillage. To exult in glorious victory. To confer vet to all brave Groaci units. To be too slow to catch slinking Barb leader.
                        700 To build Copernicus

                        675 Iron W. Gold to Orleans: 216 gp
                        650 to build Coliseum. Univ. French: 50gp
                        600 to build Harbor WLTCD starts size 7
                        550 to build Aqueduct Medicine Start Shakespeare
                        500 Aztecs: give Univ; Peace. No Dough
                        475 WLTCD stops size 12

                        450 Econ
                        400 Celts: to give mucho science for peace
                        375 Chem Hides to Texcoco: 396 gp.
                        325 ToG
                        300 buy Shakespeare. Sell Coliseum. Science 4 turns
                        275 build Shakespeare To feel that 18th century is still within reach!

                        250 Babylonians: war over 50 gp. Build silk caravan Bridge B
                        225 Most Advanced: Canada, French, English, Aztecs, Celts, Babylonians.
                        200 build Coal caravan English: to give science hopefully but receive no loot. France: trade for Feudalism. To endure humiliating Thinning of Patience.
                        175 English: want 200 gp; War
                        125 Wheel. Horsemen sent home by Aztecs. build Dip
                        25 Engineering Coal to Rheims: 94 gp. Bribe English hides Caravan. (189) Science 5 turns. To feel that something is going wrong...

                        1 AD Slimy English chariot kills brave caravan
                        40 Sanitation. Hides to Rheims: 188 gp
                        60 Tricky English kill brave chariot (to be asleep on watch. To be distracted by victorious battles) to build Univ
                        80 To bribe luckless Babylonian Catapult. To mercilessly attack accompanying catapult. To become vet
                        120 WLTCD starts size 12. To feel distinctly slow in this part of game.
                        140 Build Sewer Chivalry Babylonians: still vaingloriously warmongering.
                        180 build silk caravan To contemplate long voyage under pole to Aztecs
                        220 build coal caravan. Invention
                        240 To listen to cheapskate English request Groaci make free war with Aztecs. To patiently explain that Groaci code of honor requires significant greasing of palms. WLTCD ends size 17 (Happiness probs) build dip
                        260 Demo. Revolution. Last round of tribute: miserly Aztecs want free war with English - Hahahahaha! Babylon: peace, no dough. French: 25 gp. To experience mirthful sight of two caravans colliding under the pole. To send dip to bribe Aztec caravan
                        280 Celts: 100gp! English: no $
                        300 gov: Demo

                        320 build Stock Ex. WLTPD starts size 17. Coal to Rheims: 59 gp
                        360 Gunpowder
                        400 WLTPD ends size 21 (food)
                        440 Expl. To bribe Aztec dye Caravan for 242 gp
                        500 Metall
                        520 Silk to Teotihuacan: 315 gp
                        560 Conscription
                        580 build Newton. Treacherous English build Newcastle under smelling palps of Groaci army: War

                        600 Leadership
                        620 build spice caravan
                        640 Tactics
                        660 build cavalry. To feel unpleasant sensation of too close AI
                        680 Nav Dye to Rheims: 126 gp (demanded) Net 126 beakers for 116 gp - good deal?
                        700 Spice to Rheims: 189 gp (demanded) Build coal to send under pole. To win brilliant battle with valiant Cavalry against Newcastle; to destroy pikemen. to bribe remaining chariot. To kill 2 English units. To beat thoracic cavity with resultant loud booming noises in joyful strut of victory.
                        740 Steam E
                        760 To bribe English catapult. To kill settler and catapult. Yo Ho Ho Ho!
                        800 Magnets
                        840 RR
                        860 Spice to Rheims: 132 gp (demanded)
                        880 build 2 Engineers. Size 19 Copper to Rheims: 44 gp (no demand)
                        900 Electric Build Alpine Start Darwin
                        940 English: craven Senate insists on peace. Greedy soft indolent ones want 300 for alliance. To say no way José
                        960 Refrig French: give RR and Nav for 50 gp. To build road to Rheims for increased trade.
                        1000 Indust Coal to Teotihuacan: 187 gp
                        1080 Communism (no good tech offered) bribe Babylon cloth caravan 189 gp
                        1140 Corp Dip to French: embassy
                        1160 Darwin Steel, Refining

                        1180 WLTPD starts size 19
                        1200 Supermkt
                        1220 Electr
                        1240 build spice freight
                        1280 build wool freight
                        1300 combustion bribe Babylon gem caravan (160)
                        1320 wool freight to Rheims: 66 gp (no demand)
                        1360 WLTPD ends size 25. Auto Spice to Paris: 302gp
                        1380 Superhighways bribe English ironclad.
                        1400 Mass Prod
                        1420 Mech Tools Duplicitous French build town to overlap fertile fields of Ottawa. To place units on our squares to prevent crop stealing.
                        1460 French: give conscript for 150 gp
                        1480 Mobil W Cloth caravan to York: 390 gp (this was bribed Babylon caravan)
                        1510 Miniatur Gems to Orleans: 124 gp (from Babylon)
                        1520 to build Offshore Platform wool to Orleans: 384 gp
                        1530 Computers
                        1540 to build research lab
                        1550 Robots
                        1560 to build Factory
                        1570 Atom Th
                        1580 to build Hydro plant
                        1590 to build copper freight
                        1600 to build food freight Nuke F
                        1610 to build food freight
                        1620 to build food freight (etc. for next 10 turns) Flight
                        1650 Radio
                        1670 Adv Fl
                        1690 Nuke P
                        1720 Rockets Copper to Hastings: 246 gp
                        1740 to build Man Plant. To experience spectacular AI blunder: French offer 1000 gp to declare war on English. 1000 gp!!! To say ok José.
                        1750 Space Fl

                        1756 Apollo, to wallow in lucre thanks to French throwing selves on sword.
                        1758 to build first SS Structural
                        1760 Plastics
                        1766 To take time out to build tank for enjoyable English war; otherwise SS part every turn.
                        1770 Laser
                        1782 Supercond
                        1792 French: give Superconductor and Space Flight. Get 100 gp
                        To experience ultimate thrill of successful departure from stiflingly humid blue planet for 1821 arrival
                        To engage in thoroughly enjoyable war against huge stupid English army.

                        1821 To arrive at Groaci home star cluster as the Cruel.

                        ----------------------

                        Thanks, Tom, for the fun map! It was a personal best for me, despite the mediocre score. After Astronomy, I experienced a craven fear of losing the tech lead before getting Copernicus. So I got to develop a lot of crummy tech. And the whole area from Shakepeare to Newton is a mess. But I did have fun crushing the English with my piddly army while waiting for the apaceship to arrive.

                        I thought it was a good idea to not rushbuild Colossus at the first opportunity so as to have enough cash to build caravans and improvements in 2 turns each. I wonder if that is so.

                        I also bribed a lot of enemy caravans, which I think helped - I was never short of gold in this game. Most caravan bribes lost money, but there was always a net beaker gain. I wonder if that is a viable strategy.

                        Awaiting comments,



                        ------------------
                        --grigor

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Aurelius,

                          I experimented with WLTKD, but found that with a small city (4-5) there was no gain or a slight loss. But I didn't try it on a map with 2 wine, which could really make a difference.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            After reading through the logs, there are a few things I dont understand. (I.e., OCC stupid newbie questions.)
                            1. How do people get away with selling sewers? Does growth stop at 21? Does this mean you can also sell the aquaduct?
                            2. Why sell the temple or colossuem while still in Republic but before Shakespeare? Are people spending on luxuries to cover unhappiness? This implies foregone science.
                            3. What are the mechanics (ie, what screens, what options) of extracting gifts from allies ? (When I play Civ straight up, I never have "entangling foreign alliances".)
                            Thanks for the enlightenment.


                            ------------------
                            "I fear that I shall die a Prince."
                            -Edward VII, Prince of Wales

                            Old posters never die.
                            They j.u.s.t..f..a..d..e...a...w...a...y....

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Hi Adam,


                              Usually just before completing Shakes, the One City size is 12 and the luxuries tax is required to be at 10 or 20 % depending on the allocation of orange thingys and the presence of a bank. Luxuries at 20% is usually over kill and selling off a temple early can't hurt and it raises more cash and saves a penny in maintenance. Selling a Coliseum at the turn of completion doesn't hurt due to Shakes taking affect. So if you time your money and the selling of the two happiness improvements just right, you can rush buy shakes faster and save luxury tax towards science and tax in subsequent turns.

                              Concerning selling aqueducts and sewers, I usually forget to sell them I think it's a bad mistake as a Sewer cost 4 gd upkeep per turn. Usually the One City grows to it's maxed out food level--midtwenties.

                              The purpose of the game is to get to Alpha as soon as possible so population is just a means of accomplishing the goal --neccessary science and tax and shield production to get a ship to Alpha. The score is irrelevant or a sideshow....

                              Sound like good questions to me. OCC is a game of alternating extortion/appeasement. But you want to be worshipfully allied early on. I'm still trying to balance science giveaway with recieving plentiful monetary gifts--not to mention avoiding developing redundant tech.


                              AU--See ya on Alpha.

                              Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep? [--Inspiration of Blade Runner]

                              "> > Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the reader who
                              >doesn't get it."--don't know.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Hey don Don,

                                You probably want to have a library on hand to maximize the republic trade. And of course, ya need a marketplace.

                                Seems like the loss of pennies due to a lower tax rate during this science stint is easily compensated by trib/gifts.

                                I had a game today that involved spice and two whales and the WLTKD seemed to give a boost to science. It might help getting Republic or Philosophy a year earlier. Of course, I was saddened when the Babylonians got Copernicus built before us Sioux.

                                AU
                                Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep? [--Inspiration of Blade Runner]

                                "> > Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the reader who
                                >doesn't get it."--don't know.

                                Comment

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