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**Marquis de Sodaq** · November 1, 2001, 14:18

1) Difficulty level does not play into your score - except that it is harder to get the same score on a higher level, of course.

2) See the thread "Caravan Delivery Payoff Formula," which should still be near the top of this forum.

3) WLT_D occurs when at least half of your city's citizens are happy, and none are unhappy. The next turn, your city will increase in size, provided there is a food surplus of at least one sheaf being produced. Do you build harbors or irrigate land in your city radius? That alone will allow most cities to grow to size 15+ under any government.

4) The SuperScienceCity can produce 1000+ beakers per turn in the late game, it is a powerful city to build. It needs the Colossus, Copernicus' Observatory, and sir Isaac Newton's College - plus library, university, superhighways, and lastly a research lab or SETI. Also, see the GL thread about the "Cost of Research Explained" - trading and gifting techs to speed up your own research.

5) Don't build any improvements until you need them. For instance, no marketplace before your city makes at least 2 gold at your current tax rate. Wonders are costly to build, but require no maintenance costs. Instead of a cathedral in every city, build Mike's Chapel.

6) The thread "The Science of Science" explains the t/s/l rate explicitly. And the SSC, IIRC...

7) There is a settler/engineer and a combat

info thread on this forum. The combat thread is near the top of page two today.

Happy civing!

**sew3663** · November 1, 2001, 19:41

Well, now that I've read a little bit more in the forum, I realize that a few of my questions were a bit premature.

Thanks for not flaming me MdS... And thanks for the good response.

Follow up:
1) Hmm, I thought the level of barbarian activity had something to do with it, although I guess that is a choice regardless of difficulty level.

2) After reading about caravans/freight, as well as some strategies, what exactly do you do with the "building caravans if you have nothing else to do" as people describe? What do you have them carry? Goods or Food? Where do you have them go once there is nobody demanding anything that you have, or you have established trade with all of the available goods?
I've also seen on the OCC (one city challenge/civ?) that you can use them to help build wonder (hbw). Now if you have one city and build a caravan with food (for example), can that caravan move one space and then come back and hbw? I assume this is what they mean, since you have no other cities to change the unit's home to, if that would even work.

5) If I don't build improvements, and the city can't support any more settlers, and I don't want any more units, what should I have the city do (assuming I am early in the game and don't have capitalization)? Perhaps I could build entertainers, scientists, or tax collectors to slow the shield production while increasing happiness, science or income.... as long as I have enough food to support the city... I could always build caravans/freight, but that brings me to follow up 2)

I guess after about 1000AD in most of my games, I get so bogged down in the game I forget any efficient strategy I've had and start to lose interest in the game and have the urge to start another.

It bugs me when it gets to the point where each turn takes a half hour and I move a unit (that only moves 1 space per turn) right one turn and then forget what I wanted to do with him and move him left the next turn... then right the turn after that... then left. 2 hours have gone by and the %^*# unit is still in the same place (note: I know about the the goto function, but it is buggy so I don't use it sometimes).

Okay new questions:

8) How does multiplayer work? This is a turn based game, so does every player have to wait their turn? That sounds quite tedious. At least you can get some good naps in while gaming all night.

9)... well, I had a couple more and now I forgot. I neet to logoff, so I'll try again some other time.

Thanks,
sew3663

**shade** · November 1, 2001, 20:15

Follow up:
1) level of barbarian activity adds a few bonus points
(No barbs=-50,some=-25,a little=+25,hordes=+50 pts)

2)mostly goods=> gives cash/science
->always try to build something that is asked for,if not and you're still building Wonders you can use them to speed it up(you can also do this with other caravans if you want to),or just send them to a nice bigg foreign city.
You can use caravans by just sending them to the city that's building the wonder and then use the option "HELP BUILD WONDER"
Foodcaravans can be used to do this in the exact the same way(or in OCC just like you describe i thought)

5)Build caravans or spy/diplomats
(btw why would you not build improvements,I always find myself building to slow,so I never have time to spare)
(BTW taxmen/scientists/entertainers aren't build=>read the manual

)

=>1000AD your not even half in the game

but I can't find what really affects city growth. I can't seem to get my cities to grow past 10 with a Monarchy and 12-13 (on average) in Republic. What role does food and happiness play in city growth?

In addition to what Marquis said:
build aquaducts(else the city will not even grow bigger then 8)
Build Sewer Systems(to get over size 12)
irrigate
make Farmland(double irrigation) and build supermarket
build harbor(2food/ocean)
this way a normal city surrounded by only grasland and NO specials will grow to a size 42.
Also build granaries(or the PIRAMIDS) so you only have to fill up half the foodbox)

4) best hint of all => first try warlord and then prince and then king and then emperor /Diety if you don't want to get slaughtered immediatly
(and building Libs/univ/labs in all cities works also,NOTE that caravans also give science beakers on delivery)

Good luck

Shade

**Marquis de Sodaq** · November 1, 2001, 22:20

Originally posted by sew3663
Well, now that I've read a little bit more in the forum, I realize that a few of my questions were a bit premature.

Thanks for not flaming me MdS... And thanks for the good response.

My signature line spares me the need to insult people!

Originally posted by sew3663
2) After reading about caravans/freight, as well as some strategies, what exactly do you do with the "building caravans if you have nothing else to do" as people describe? What do you have them carry? Goods or Food?

As Shade suggests, park the caravans in a city in which you plan to build a wonder. It doesn't matter much what goods a caravan is, unless you plan to deliver it later. For instance, build a gold caravan, but use others first to build a wonder. If some city later demands gold, you have that one ready to move.

Originally posted by sew3663
5) If I don't build improvements, and the city can't support any more settlers, and I don't want any more units, what should I have the city do (assuming I am early in the game and don't have capitalization)?

diplomats can run around and bribe barbarians, explore, and start mischief with the neighbors. They require no support.

**Messer Niccolò** · November 2, 2001, 08:58

Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq

My signature line spares me the need to insult people!

BTW which is more "insulting" (

) the signature line, this reply or the two together?

... and sew3663, ask ask and again ask (even silly questions can lead to useful reply - not only for you!!!)

**Laertes** · November 2, 2001, 09:29

Re: A Few Questions on Civ 2

[QUOTE]
1) When it has the Civ score at the end, there are a number of things that give you points, all to be added up in your final score. How are these affected with the various difficulties? Is there some sort of scaling factor?[\QUOTE]

I believe the Marquis' earlier answer is incorrect. Your score is counted on the same basis (2pts for a happy person, 1 for content etc whatever) but there is a scaling factor for difficulty level. I think Prince is the neutral level, maybe emperor, but at Deity I believe there is a 25-50% bonus applied, to get your percentage.

4. What strategies can I use to (at least) keep up with the AI in tech when I play emperor or harder difficulties? I've read about the "Science city" approach. How does that work? Why not just have libraries and universities in every city possible?

A key trick is managing your empire, not njust your cities. Your cities need to specialise to some degree. Some cities have trade specials around them - use these to build the improvements you mention. Libraries are expensive early on, focus on trade caravans.

5) I try and build as many city improvements as possible, thinking that they will help the city to grow, increasing my population and revenue. Is that a wrong theory? I find that I am always struggling for money. Any tips on sound finances?

For example, You only need temples when your population in a city is going to hit 5, in the early game, or 6 with Hanging Gardens and a smallish empire. If you build a Marketplace in a city producing 2 gold, it only breaks even, as it gains you 1G per turn but costs 1 for maintenance. If your city produces 3G, your market still only breaks even, as the 1.5G bonus is rounded down. So, a market is only economically worthwhile at 4G, but it also has a happiness benefit under Republic.

**sew3663** · November 2, 2001, 13:13

Re: Re: A Few Questions on Civ 2

Originally posted by Fergus Horkan

For example, You only need temples when your population in a city is going to hit 5, in the early game, or 6 with Hanging Gardens and a smallish empire. If you build a Marketplace in a city producing 2 gold, it only breaks even, as it gains you 1G per turn but costs 1 for maintenance. If your city produces 3G, your market still only breaks even, as the 1.5G bonus is rounded down. So, a market is only economically worthwhile at 4G, but it also has a happiness benefit under Republic.

Man, you guys really are pros...

So, it appears that city size is the primary determining factor of happiness levels. A city of 5 gets one unhappy person almost automatically, so you need an entertainer, temple, cathedral, HG, etc., to offset that, although some of them are overkill. Now depending on the type of government you have, things such as what type and where your military units are will have an effect as well. I go to the city happiness screen and I have a hard time reading what is going on. Has anyone submitted a "how to read what the various city screens are telling you" post? The manual and civilopedia don't really have much detail with the mechanics of the game.

Well, you are absolutely right about "empire management". I just don't (can't) pay attention to what's going on once the turns get tedious. Is there anone who has a method that workd for them, like jotting down things on a notebook while playing, so they don't forget what to do next turn?... Admittedly, I haven't read the "Perfectionist" strategy yet in the GL yet...

**Edward** · November 2, 2001, 14:40

sew3663,

Welcome! So many good questions.

sew3663
2) ...where I can find the same detail explaining caravans/freight wrt what they carry, how much the trade route will be worth once established, how distance between cities affects it, how to best utilize them, food and wonder help, etc...?

Any caravan, food or trade good, can be used to "help build wonder". Caravans are the cheapest way to build wonders and they allow you to have other cities help the wonder-building city, thus getting the wonder completed before your opponents.

As for setting up trade routes, just building a lot of caravans and using them to establish trade routes is a good start. Some hints on where to deliver them:

* Not to a city where they might be killed en route. Delivering to a close city minimizes this risk. Using ship chaining and roads can also help.

* Foreign cities give you double the bonus and permanent arrows that one of your cities with identical attributes would have given you.

* Your one-time coin and beaker bonus and your permanent trade arrow income are based on the number of trade arrows the source and destination city generate. Without using a diplomat or spy, you can't tell how many arrows a foreign city is making. However a great rule of thumb is the bigger the city the more arrows it's probably making. A republic or democratic civ's cities will be generating more arrows than a less progressive civ's cities will. A city on or by a river will be generating more arrows than a similar sized city not on a river.

* If the city demands your good - then you'll get a much bigger one-time bonus (two to four times as much IIRC). Thus you first want to deliver to someone who demands your good (assuming they're not a tiny city) if there's someone like that around. However just delivering the caravan gives you a good bonus, so don't get too bogged down in the supply/demand stuff. (Thank heavens they got rid of caravans in Civ3.)

sew3663
3) Many people have talked about city building, but I can't find what really affects city growth.

Three things make your cities grow.

1. Having lots of food on the squares you're working. This is greatly increased by irrigating flatland (plains, grassland, and oases). In the modern era a supermarket and improving your irrigation to farmland is good too. However all this requires settlers to improve the terrain. In a coastal city, building a harbor is almost always a good idea (assuming you have 3 or more ocean squares to work). It gives you one extra food per ocean square you work.

2. Having granary. A granary in every city can really speed up their growth. Of course the Pyramids are wonderful because then you don't have to waste the time and shields to build all those granary nor the gold to pay for their upkeep. However the AI really likes the Pyramids so you have to work quickly to get them.

3. We Love the Consul/President Day. This only grows your cities if you're a republic or democracy. (In lower government forms you only get more trade arrows). Once you're a republic/democracy, if you have a bunch of irrigated land and/or harbors, you can push your luxury rate way up and then your cities will grow every turn that they celebrate. Note that the city not only needs to be celebrating, it must also have a surplus of food being harvested. Otherwise it celebrates, but doesn't grow.

sew3663
4) I find it is difficult on chieftain for me to make a successful spaceship by 2020AD.

One thing that worked well for me is when the calendar hits 1900, stop settling new cities and concentrate just on research and caravan building. Setting this artificial time limit can really help. If, however, you problem is not lack of focus but instead lack of techs or shields - then you need to rethink your strategy. Most likely you aren't researching as quickly as you could.

sew3663
5) I try and build as many city improvements as possible, thinking that they will help the city to grow, increasing my population and revenue. Is that a wrong theory? I find that I am always struggling for money. Any tips on sound finances?

Fergus Horkan says it all. Never build city improvements until they're either necessary or blatantly a good return on your investment. That one piece of advice dramatically improved my game. Plenty of roads on flatlands to generate arrows helps too. In the later years, Adam Smith's Trading Company will make all your 1 coin improvements free and thus can help your economy.

**Edward** · November 2, 2001, 14:42

sew3663
I've read about the "Science city" approach. How does that work? Why not just have libraries and universities in every city possible?

Do we not have a Great Library section on the Super Science City (SSC)?!! (I didn't see it when I looked.)

Early in the game, found a city in a spot that'll give you access to a lot of food and arrows. Rivers are the best. Flatland (plains and grassland) can be improved with irrigation and roads to increase food and arrows. Any coastal city with a lot of sea squares can be a good SSC just by building a harbor. An experienced player will swear by trade specials, but to begin with just find a spot that'll grow a big city.

In this city you want to build all the science and trade wonders. (Colossus, Copernicus's Observatory, and Issac Newton's College). Hanging Gardens is also nice since you can more easily grow the city large (3 extra happy faces) and more easily celebrate it (for increased arrows under early government forms). Shakespeare's Theater can help it stay happy later on.

You also want to concentrate all your city improvement rush-buying and settler terrain improvement on this city - even at the expense of letting your other cities languish for a while. Concentrate on making this the largest city (granary, harbor, irrigation, supermarket) with the most trade generating one (roads, 3 early trade routes ASAP, superhighway). Since it's large it will of course benefit the most from almost any city improvement you can build. Don't be afraid to max taxes to rush stuff in this city. Anything it can build is probably a better investment than whatever else you were thinking of doing with your money.

Why is this better than a library and university in every city?

* You can quickly get your research up and running.
It's faster build up one city to a huge size than to build up 10 or more cities to an average size. And by size, I not only mean population. Terrain improvements, science improvements, trade improvements, happiness improvements, setting up multiple trade routes, etc. can be done centuries before similar infrastructure can be built in a number of medium sized cities. You can keep your other cities small (at least in the beginning) and not waste any time or shields on their city improvements and just concentrate on your SSC. This means many more turns of high beaker research (with the added benefit of high coins when you need them).

* And because it's so big and has so much trade, your empire will benefit 10 times as much (or more) from the city improvements in your SSC than you'd benefit from them elsewhere. The return on your investment is incredible. I think you'll find the output of your SSC to be equal to that of the rest of your empire combined. And that's at a vastly smaller price.

* The wonders work synergistically together. Since the SSC is say twice as big as your average city, that means that the Colossus will generate twice as many arrows in your SSC instead of in any old city. Similarly Copernicus and Issac will bring in twice as many bonus beakers than they would elsewhere. Make that 4 times as much since in the SSC you purposely build roads early and chose high arrow squares. Make that 6 times as much since you built high yield trade routes in your SSC very early. I'm sure I'm missing some additional multipliers. I mean, why build Issac's in a random large city when you can build it in a science/arrow powerhouse and have it be 10 times as effective?

* A caravan built in the SSC costs just as many shields/coins as one built elsewhere, but it yields many times as many bonus coins and beakers when it's delivered.

* Building up one city quickly gives you access to specialists (taxmen & scientists) sooner. If you want to race the AI to a wonder tech - a single einstein in your SSC will be 10 or more times as effective as an einstein in another city.

* It costs much less in coins per turn to maintain the SSC's city improvements than to maintain many similar improvements in many cities. And the kicker is that the single SSC improvement will be as effective as the many similar city improvements in many cities.

* I'm sure there are other benefits I've overlooked. It's a very powerful tactic.

**sew3663** · November 5, 2001, 18:13

Originally posted by Edward
It's a very powerful tactic.

I'm sold, Edward.

I started a game last night, Prince Difficulty, 6 civs, earth map. I picked the Zulus and chose Zimbabwe as my science city. I got to about 900AD before saving the game and giving up with a civ score of 11% (pretty pathetic, huh?). I was to Physics, Gunpowder & Theory of Flight. I sealed off the Suez early on and nobody built any cities on the continent, but through transports, I had the Greeks and the Sioux wandering all over the place. I was starting well, but after about 6 cities, I forgot what I was trying to do (expand) and started using the settlers to try and build up the roads and irrigation of my existing cities. I explored many huts across Asia. I gained a few units and about 6 cities. I settled eastern Africa, then got distracted with Alexander the Great messing with me constantly. He started breaking treaties around 100AD and harassed me all the time. I lost my second biggest city (which happened to be a hut city in Asia) to barbarians, so I needed to build army units instead of caravans for a short period of time, wasting a few turns. I was in contact only with the greeks, sioux and chinese. The Greeks wiped out Spain early on and the Aztecs were the only other one I knew about. There was another civ that I hadn't seen nor heard from yet (probably somewhere in the americas). I had about 6 wonders (colossus, HG, Darwin's voyage, GL, Isaac Newton's college, and researching JSB Cathedral), all of which were in Zimbabwe. It was about 10 population and I was still at monarchy, although I could've switched to democracy or republic. I was afraid to lose support for the settlers I already had out there.

My assessment: I understand the facts of the game pretty well. I'm terrible (read, lazy) when it comes to managing the empire. I tend to rush through making decisions on the fly, only to forget what my point for doing "that thing" last turn was... then to remember shortly after I've moved the unit elsewhere...

Any game management tricks to help someone who doesn't have the discipline to pay attention to the details?

**Carnildo** · November 7, 2001, 01:10

Unfortunately, this probably won't help you much, but I've been playing so long I can simply look at a city and tell, from its current condition, what I've been doing in that city, what needs doing next, and what a good long-term goal for that city is. I could probably load one of my games from a few years ago and pick up right where I left off.

**Rufus T. Firefly** · November 7, 2001, 07:10

Just a quick note on how scoring works (your question #1): The factors that contribute to the raw score are constant: 2 points for each happy person, 1 point for each content person (including Elvis/Ebenezer/Einsteins), 20 points for each wonder, etc. Where difficulty level comes in is in converting raw score to percentage. To get this, the raw score is divided by a divisor which decreases as the levels increase: Deity's divisor is 8, Emperor's is 10, King's is 12, etc.

So let's say your game, as you described it, has you building 30 cities averaging 12 people per city, 2 of whom (on average) are happy, two of whom are unhappy, and 8 of whom are content; let's say you also build 13 wonders and land a 100-point spaceship on AC (let's assume, no points positive or negative for barbarians, pollution, or world peace). That's 30*8*1=240 for content citizens + 30*2*2=120 for happy citizens + 13*20=260 for wonders + 100 for the ship = 720 points as your raw score. At Deity, that's a score of 90%, at Emperor it's 72%, at King it's 60%, etc. At Warlord (divisor=16) it's only 45%. As you can see, the lower the playing level, the more you need cities, population, and wonders for a big score.

Hope that dispelled more confusion that it created!

Welcome to Apolyton!

**ColdWizard** · November 8, 2001, 01:21

MP play

8) How does multiplayer work? This is a turn based game, so does every player have to wait their turn? That sounds quite tedious. At least you can get some good naps in while gaming all night.

yes, every player must wait his turn, but city management can be and should be done while other people are moving (as much as possible, sometimes you have to do some management during your turn). IMO, your turn should be used to move only units. naps are good as long as you don't sleep too soundly

. during one civ game back in my college days, we went for 12 hours with a half hour break one saturday. i nearly finished a philosophy paper while waiting for the other players turns

.

many of us MPers play MP exclusively. if you're interested in MP drop by the civ2 MP forum and take a look around.

**Simpson II** · November 12, 2001, 15:11

Re: trying to make micromanagement easier, I think it's basically a question of having a model in your head of how the *ideal* game would look. Once you have a plan like this it becomes quite intuitive.
One related point is to try to keep your cities 'in phase', that is, even out their development so that they are doing similar things at similar times.

In terms of improving your science, power, etc., there are lots of little tricks, but the main advice I would give is to expand rapidly at the start. Build *nothing* but settlers and garrison units until you're ready to stop and consoldate. Not the only way to play, but it's the easiest to master, and very powerful.

And of course, as you say you can read the perfectionist part of the library - I think my Small Gods is still the only article, so I recommend that section quite highly!

It should give you a decent example of a plan, which should in principle allow you to jump direct to Deity level, and will certainly get your spaceship underway well before 2020AD.

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A Few Questions on Civ 2

A Few Questions on Civ 2

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