Pros & Cons of Giving Techs to the AI

[Campo]

I hope it's okay to quote someone else's post in a new thread, because I didn't want to go too far off topic in the previous one.

In the MGE diplomacy thread, Sten Sture said:
"...the primary reason [for giving techs to the AI] is to extend their research time on their next technology. The AI doesn't use infrastucture development as well as people do, and when you have the SSC, they just can't compete for science results. Therefore giving them a tech they might otherwise skip, especially early ones, actually slows down their tech development on later, more important techs."

I've seen similar reasoning from other people, but Sten's got me thinking hard about this philosophy. Is it really valid?
I'm not talking about OCC here. The reasons for giving techs are a little different there. I'm asking about standard SP games.

On the one hand, it makes sense: give them "lesser" techs to slow down their progress on "better" techs.

On the other hand, there are three possible flaws:
1. You can't always choose what tech to give; when you offer a gift, your options are limited. So maybe they get a desirable tech.
2. Even a lesser tech is usually a prerequisite to a better one, so a small gift early can end up helping them reach an important goal later.
3. While it's true that giving them techs slows down progress on subsequent techs, it (obviously) speeds up their acquisition of the techs you give them. Unless you can be sure you only give them techs they wouldn't have researched, isn't it possible that you're helping them more than hurting?

Sten, I'm not impuning your reasoning. You may well be right. I just can't sort out the implications clearly enough to be sure. I'd like to hear the group's opinions on this.

[Ming]

In regular SP mode, I try never to "give" the AI anything. I might trade with them if they offer something I really want, and I'm not asked to give up something I don't want them to have yet (like a wonder I'm building or gunpowder)

The ONLY time I will give one away is if by some slim chance, they catch me with my pants down on defense, and I want to stall them a for a while so I can remedy whatever tactical error I made.

As far as giving them sciences to "slow" them down... I don't see the point of it. Once you are the best, they are all going to ally against you anyway, and give each other every little tech in the world. This occurs later in the game... so if it does indeed slow them down, this is when I want it to happen

[Sten Sture]

[EvC mode]WHAT IS THIS HERESY??? ARE YOU IMPUNING MY REASONING???[/EvC mode]

Ming's points are of course entirely valid, I just play a different style in SP.

Like everything else, my giving techs away to the AI depends on the tactical situation. The way I play SP in the MGE version (I have 2.42, but I never even play SP on it) is usually to try to keep all of the AI civs balanced and as much at war with each other as possible while I develop my infrastructure. It seems to me that my having a large tech advantage encourages hostility from the AI. Now I've played enough not to be overly concerned with the AI's Iranian military tactics, but I don't want them bothering me unless I dictate the time and arena. By preventing them from trading techs among themselves by being the providor, I have found that it extends their own petty inter-AI wars. That may be my imagination, but I overemphasize giving things to the AI partially to encourage a line of thinking that deviates from the conventional wisdom that Ming posted.

Let's think about some examples...

If there is a large-ish civ researching Monarchy, and I want to keep them from it for a while, I may give them Map Making, the Wheel, Bridge Building, Writing, Pottery, and Construction. The effect of this is to push back the research time for Monarchy for them.

On the other hand, if they are smaller and under threat from a neighbor, I may give them Monarchy and Bronze working to improve their defensive capabilities.

If an aggressive civ is in my neck of the woods, I may give them perfectionist advances like Republic (what is funnier than the Mongols trying to sustain all out war in early rep) or Medicine or really anything non-military.

If an AI is researching a tech that will give them Wonder access that I want to build, I might give them several techs.

If there is parity among the civs, I might give them all gunpowder. I know that I won't have any trouble capturing cities defended with a couple of muskets, but the AI sure will.

When you go to gift an AI techs you have a choice of two that they would like, I never worry about which one they prefer, and either give them the one I want, or if that is not one of the available choices, I say "nevermind."

Happy civing... but don't be afraid of the AI.

[Steve Clark]

Sten: Superb reasonings as usual. For me, it comes down to whether it's AC or bloodlust (SP of course). In the latter, I tend to follow Ming's approach somewhat where the key is to quickly have superior attack units. By constantly harrassing and eventually clobbering nearby civs, they will slow their science down to concentrate on shields and gold. Alternatively, in the few AC games that I have played, I agree and have done some of the things on your list for the reasons you stated. And yes, I do give them Space Flight only when 1) I have built at least 6 SS and 2) I want them to stop sending their Bombers at my One-City. I have found, at least in my last game, that that is enough of a head start on the ship and that they will slow down production of attack units.

To add to your list, I tend to give techs away AFTER I have built the associated wonder. Theology, Medicine and Literacy comes to mind for those only have a Wonder, no other improvements or units. This is also true for Philosophy where no one can get an extra advance after I have discovered it first. Railroad is another one that works on two levels: 1) Darwin's is useless for anyone else and 2) allowing them to build railroads will eventually benefit me more than them. Overall, if I'm in bloodlust, I will do anything to steer them away from the military wonders/improvements/units.

[Ming]

Well SS, we can agree on one thing... Never be afraid of the AI.
I never worry about what the AI is doing.
If they want to fight with each other, fine by me. I've never really seen a need to get involved. If I take care of my own business, what the AI does is irrelevent
Now, there have been a few OCC games...

[Seeker]

Iranian Military Tactics

(at the Iranian West Point)

Prof: see that machine gun nest? you're all going to charge it.

student: what kind of a strategy is that?!

Prof: (smack) Quiet! Insallah, they will run out of bullets before we run out of soldiers!

[DaveV]

If you're a compulsive micromanager and going for a "fastest" style game, the AIs can help you out with your research. This is particularly easy if you have Marco Polo's Embassy. Use the intelligence screen to determine what each AI is researching. If it's a tech you already have, give it to them. Eventually, some AI will discover a tech you don't have; trade, beg, or steal it, give it away if necessary, and continue the cycle.

At some point (about Automobile, maybe), you'll want to stop doing this to keep the AIs from having really good techs. But you can really speed up your research in the mid-game this way. You're turning the AIs' research handicap to your advantage, as well as having the potential to have 7 civs researching techs for you at the same time.

[War4ever]

i think the biggest reason to give away techs early or to trade period with the ai, is for me to find where everyone is, and to determine who is weak and who is mighty, after all, i am always supreme. Trading of caravans is what maps are for for me on the economic front, while also helping me plan my great military conquests. I find the earlier i make contact with the ai the easier it is to get maps from them. This is why i used to rely on Marco Polos so much in my early civing days.... now i have learned to play without it.

I try not to get involved in AI wars, but when my trading partners are continuosly under attack, well you know how it is.....
if my economic ally should become too much of a pain, well you know how it is....
if i am having a tyrannical sort of evening, well you know how it is... etc.....

partnerships last as long as i need them, and i am very reluctant to give anyone much of anything unless its early in the game and i already have Monarchy and this goes for AC or bloodlust.

While giving tech does hamper the ai research, it does inevitably give them more tech than they already had. Therefore i only see it worthy if you are trying to prevent them from researching specific techs at specific times

------------------
Improvements and wonders are just big bullseyes for the conqueror.... and i like to think of myself as Robin Hood

[Aurelius]

Hmmm, we have to watch this Sten guy carefully. He suggests the 'primary reason' to give the AI science is to hamper their science development. But he might just be emphasizing another and newly discovered way to interfere in the AI's internal affairs--surely his main goal

Sten was the one that first suggested to me the idea of giving Construction and Sanitation to the AI to help them grow and thus increase one's trade routes with their growing cities....he's an insidious character.

I like giving away tech to form alliances but Sten's cat and mouse game with the AI is probably worthy. Hey Sten do you play MP diplomacy games

AU

[Sten Sture]

Aurelius - LoL! It is all probably running in place, but it makes the game more interesting to me... sort of a SP Diplomacy game using MGE - now there's a set of contradictions.

Actually, I haven't had regular time to play MP since the fall, but there is a rumor that I may start-up Wednesday evenings soon.

(welcome back from the wrong coast, we missed you around here.)

[Black Bart]

Give? that word is not in my civ2 dictionary

The AI research rates aren't based on any real calculation IMHO. When you are doing good in Democracy, they are doing good- even if still in Monarchy. And they trade with each other any way. I'll trade lesser techs until gunpowder. I never trade away gunpowder. I do trade (sometimes give to the weaker ones) away railroad (as long as I can get Darwin built first) just so they will build them and make conquest eaiser.
[This message has been edited by Black Bart (edited June 01, 2000).]

[SilverDragon]

quote: Give? that word is not in my civ2 dictionary

quote: [I do] ...sometimes give to the weaker ones...

An inconsistancy, I believe.
Yay, my quote flags worked.


[This message has been edited by SilverDragon (edited June 01, 2000).]

[Smash]

giving techs can/will lower your research time

[Black Bart]

those damn quotes, doh!

[Empress]

In OCC I give the A/I whatever it wants. In multiplayer civ I only trade techs with the A/I. I figure why not? If I don't the other person will!