If you could build 1 wonder....

[Andz83]

If I could build 1 wonder, I would kill myself, b/c this isn't enough for me to survive in a civ game.
My favourites are Michelangelo, Hoover Dam, Pyramids, Leonardo, Adam Smith, (Women's Suffrage and United Nations), but if I could build just ONE of them, I would take...
let's say I would take Michelangelo, because all the others I'm able to compensate with the construction of certain buildings (cathedrals are too expensive) or trading (AS), so that Leonardo would be the only wonder I really missed...

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"The more I know, the more do I know that I don't know anything" - forgotten who said that...
"Within the peace, enemy attacks us..." - Kaiser Wilhelm II, August 1914
"Hell, yeah!" - James Hetfiels, while singing "Master Of Puppets" on Metallica-S&M-concert in spring 1999 in San Francisco

[Venger]

quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark on 04-17-2000 03:00 PM The favorable comment about Pyramids I just don't agree with, but then again, that's the genius of Civ2! A size 5 city is NOT better than a size 3 city if those two extra citizens causes unhappiness problems. A size 3 city, fully productive is more beneficial to my civ than one that causes me to reduce my research production. Or better said, I would much rather have a size 3 and a size 2 city than one at size 5 early in the game. Therefore, I just don't want grow my cities faster than I can manage. IMO, of course.

You are telling me that with X game turns you'd rather have a size 5 city than size 3? Now you cannot compare a size 5 city with a size 3 and size 2 city - the dual cities actually produce one more square. Not to mention you cannot get a size 3 and size 2 city without granary in the same time as a size 5 with.

A city producing 2 extra food without granary will grow in 10 turns, grow again in 15 turns, grow again in 20 turns. So in 45 turns you will be up to size 4.

The same city with Pyramidal granary will grow in 10 turns, in 8 turns, in 10 turns, in 15 turns, and be size 5 in 43 turns.

Factor Size x Time and you end up with 100 units of production (Trade, production) for city 1. For city 2 that's 126. That's 26 extra production squares that can be excess trade or shields.

Note that this turns into a REAL ***** on the next growth cycle, taking 25 turns for city 1 and 13 for city 2, giving, by turn 70, 200 production units for City 1 to 265 for City 2.

Extrapolate that across your entire dominion, and it becomes pretty obvious the growth factor Pyramids gives is extremely valuable. It is exacerbated by actually building Settlers in these cities, as they A) are built faster in city 2, B) impact production less because the come from a larger city.

Venger

[Smash]

"blanket" wonders are better for large civs.My SP civs usually don't exceed 6-10 cities when going for for AC.

I rarely build The Pyramids.Not that I dont want to.Just I want the science wonders 1st and the ai usually builds them first.A good wonder if you cant celebrate.(Monarchy Commie).

With my smaller civs these days I find it faster to build improvements.
Temple,colliseum,cathedral with a market, bank and stock exchange +trade routes=large cities(20+) with 10% luxuries under Democracy.In fact you will probably have to sell sewers to stop growing into negative food situations.

Of course Mich's is strong but if I could only build 1 it is still Cope's for now.

[Lung]

Gee, i think i started something with the Pyramids . Originally the Pyramids weren't my favourite, and if i really could have only one, i would probably go towards Mich's Chapel. However, this ignores the fact that the Pyramids make it so much easier to get MC. I control the phenomenal growth the Pyramids give you by creating ****-loads of settlers, and convert the food-only squares to scientists and taxmen, and unfortunately, sometimes entertainers as well.

In the end, i have more settlers than i can poke a stick at, good science and tax, and a civ which can gear into war mode effectively against any threat. I have enough cities to build MC, Leonardo's, Adam Smith, Magellan's if necessary, and even King Richard's to build even more wonders - all at once.

With the Pyramids, Michaelangelo's Chapel, Adam Smith's, Leonardo's Workshop, and Hoover Dam you are truly invicible (Did i forget any?)
[This message has been edited by Lung (edited April 17, 2000).]

[Paul]

I usually go for an AC win, so if I could build only one wonder it woulf be Apollo

[Sieve Too]

Pyramids? Not a Deity level. Pyramids just force you to look at Elvis sooner. Worse, with 1 or 2 Elvii I'll probably be forced to work high food squares to feed them, robbing me of production and trade and forcing my Settlers to irrigate when they should be road building or founding new cities.

Early in the game, I want to be building mostly Settlers (not Temples) and for that you must wait for a city to reach size 2. Pyramids are no help at all getting a city from size 1 to 2. After you've expanded a bit, happiness becomes a big problem and Pyramids only make it worse.

Later in the game, food caravans and WLT_D effectively make the Pyramids obsolete anyway. Once in Republic or Democracy you'd be better off with any of the other early wonders. They all remain useful up to their point obsolence.

[Andz83]

Paul: You can also build spaceships without having built Apollo for yourself. Another civ might have built it, too. It's only an advantage if you want to be faster than the others. Then you could build Apollo before the others would even have discovered Space Flight. Didn't ever happen to me...

[Steve Clark]

Sieve Too: Exactly what I wanted to say but you said it much better than I could. Well done.

[Smash]

very good Paul...LOL

[KenThur]

Well gentle(?)men, just to be different & to further emphasize the diversity of this great game...(assuming deity good MP)

I'v come to like Colussus instead of Pyramids in the early game: doesn't expire until Flight (if the game even lasts that long).
I usually build it in my capital, since there is NEVER corruption & it has the most citizens to work & max advantage.

If U have selected your location well as U should(good specials with lots of arrows) & are a road-builder as i; building the Col = huge jump in EVERYTHING except production (then of course, gold buys anything, anywhere).

Depending on alot of other factors, i'll build it AFTER i'v built a library & marketplace to leverage it's effect. By then, U'v got trade, build 3 caravans asap... send'm to the best trading destinations & WALLA, instant wealth, research, & it just keeps on coming, turn after turn, century after century!!
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Mid-game: i'm leaning more & more to Sun's rather than Leo's.

1st: U can build it sooner.
2nd: Someone HAS TO get to the automobile(=no Leo's) BEFORE they get to mobile warfare (=no Sun's)
3rd: Yeah U get updated units w/ Leo's, but they all turn to rookies! It barely matters that a vet phalax turns to a musketeer, defense still = 3. Or heaven forbid, U lose all your vet pikers & i come at your newbie musketeers w/ my vet Crusaders!

4th: It's rather easy to "convert" a naval vessel to a vet w/o the Lighthouse; U just kill some hapless settler/warrior/horse & WALLA(!) instant vet naval unit.
And i enjoy nothing more than to pull up next to a walled enemy city w/ my vet frigate & blow away a couple of non-multipled defenders, land a couple of vet crusaders, & fight/walk right into the city. Surprise!
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As for late game:
Gotta go with U guys that like Hoover Dam = HUGE production & pollution advanage... just when U need both the most.

For what it's worth. Play on!


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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[SmartFart]

Milo: I think you forgot about HP/firepower/Attack value when you compared non-vet musketeers w/ vet phalanx/pikemen.

I hardly need any Elvis in SP games,w/ or w/o Pyramids.
But with Pyramids i usually get all wonders i want,with exceptions of probably one or two max.
My 1st two cities start to build a wonder as soon as each of them produce one settlers and 4 warriors.
Every AI starts with a Pyramids (their food box is twice smaller),so i want mine too ASAP.
2nd city usually going for HG,but if AI beats me,no problem. MC will do the job.
In fact...i hardly remember last time AI beated me in something else than HG and STWA.

[Caesar the Great]

Manhattan Project, unquestionably, if used correctly this is more powerful than any other wonder.