Another early AC landing

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Mad Max, 1117 is nothing to call bad! Sure, Samson and Solo are a giant step ahead, but most civers are happy to beat 1900!

I still need to try this. For all, a basic question - how much of your production is rushbuilding? With production of 5 shields, do you rush build an increment of 10 each turn, or rush build up to 10 less than completion each turn? I imagine the early game (before economy gets strong) must be the former.

[samson]

Max,

As Marquis says, 1117 is an outstanding date on a medium map.

To maximize my tradebonus I first build hanging gardens and the colossus in the SSC and use rehoming caravans. Until now I still build pyramids and deliver caravans from all cities. But now I will use only rehoming because of you

This must be a language problem. We DO NOT use rehoming caravans since it is considered a cheat by many.

Your strategy, a combination of aggressive overseas trading and AI tech farming, is interesting. Both of those techniques have been discussed in our early landing strategy threads, but neither have been given the exclusive emphasis that you give them. Solo usually relies more on trade than I do, but WITHOUT rehoming caravans it is difficult to base your research entirely on freight-bonuses. So far anyway, a purer research focused approach appears to have the edge.

The multiplexed research of AI tech farming would seem, in theory, to provide a faster method of obtaining techs than a single pathed approach. But in practice, the 6X science multiplier of a high trade SSC, can beat all the AI combined. Of course, getting a few key techs from the AI at the right time can make or break an early landing attempt. But the cost of MPE or 6 diplos in the early game is too high -- unless that is the focal point of your strategy.

I may sound sceptical of your approach, but that does not mean I'm not grateful to you for sharing it. I love the outside-the-box thinking behind it and may give it a try myself.

Early landing on Deity level is not easy. If it was, these conversations wouldn't be taking place. It requires an excellent start, good luck, and a focused implementation of a chosen strategy. Every arrow, every beaker, every shield on every turn must move you towards your goal.

[samson]

For all, a basic question - how much of your production is rushbuilding? With production of 5 shields, do you rush build an increment of 10 each turn, or rush build up to 10 less than completion each turn? I imagine the early game (before economy gets strong) must be the former.

My economy never gets strong. But I rush-build as much as I can.

[Jaguar]

max, I am impressed. My best is 1376, and I think that is one of the better records on this site. Samson is still beating me by 1000 years!

[solo]

Mad Max,

That date is excellent! It is very close to arii's 1075, which was considered unbeatable for a very long time, so nice going!

samson,

I tried it again using your small map, and think I got the hang of it this time, arriving in 336 AD. My first wonder was Copernicus, but after that I decided to grow my SSC first, before adding more science to it, and this worked very well, since the 12,24 site permitted maximum growth very quickly.

Building Shakespeare’s Theater as the next wonder worked very well. It permitted unlimited growth without the need of a colosseum, marketplace, bank, etc. and allowed 0% luxuries for more income and/or 100% science in Democracy for turns that needed it. It also permitted early trade by supporting a trireme after Democracy in 925 BC.

Using a harbor with 12,24 was particularly effective. At only 60 shields, a harbor was cheap and each ocean worker produces as much science as a roaded grassland having superhighways! The extra food a harbor provides sustains we love growth rates, too! The harbor was built in 800 BC, permitting size 12 by 750 BC. Next time I find a good ocean SSC, I’m heading to Seafaring pronto in order to build one even earlier. Much quicker and cheaper than road building, irrigation and superhighways. This may work very well with ST, as the first wonder, since ocean squares produce a lot of free trade arrows.

Focusing on early growth delayed science a bit, but even with this detour, Isaac Newton’s was completed by 425 BC, and 1-turn advances were easily sustained for the rest of the game.

Vigorous trade provided several opportunities for 2 advances per turn and provided substantial income just when it was needed the most. I found myself delaying the research of Flight and Space Flight (each cuts trade payoffs by 1/3, I believe) to get more out of the limited trading time that was available. What’s the use of getting to Space Flight 5 turns earlier without the cash and extra freights that profitable trade helps provide for building a spaceship? In fact, THIS, more than research speed, seems to be the limiting factor, preventing pre-AD landings so far. Even with excellent, albeit limited, trade during this game, I could not get a rocket ready until 300 BC, 5 turns after learning Space Flight in 200 BC.

As always, the road and railroad bonuses to nearby Zimbabwe and reduced research costs with a small map, make it the way to go for the earliest landings.

I will type up a log and post it if you are interested in more detail.

[samson]

Solo,

Nice going. I assume your 336 BC landing date is a typo. 336AD, right? You can't land pre-AD in a standard rules game.

Still, you haven't convinced me of the value of ST in this game. I had my SSC up to size12 by 700BC without ST, only needed a colosseum. 3 road-bonus trade routes made a marketplace unneccesary. 100% science in this game was never needed. And a trireme is easily supported from a small port city with a temple.

As for the SSC sites, they are pretty much equal. Max trade for 12,20 at size 14 is 199 arrows. Max trade for 14,24 at size 15 is 198 arrows. One has more ocean, the other more rivers. Both require irrigation to support usage of all four specials. The Zimbabwe road is shorter from 12,20 and consists of two bridges that need building anyway. The road from 14,24 goes over forest, mountain, and hill. The 4th special at 12,20 is hidden, the one at 14,24 is offshore. A toss up.

I think the improvement in your landing date is largely due to map familiarity, knowing where those Carthaginians are makes a huge difference in trade opportunities.

As for research vs. production as the limiting factor: it's clearly research speed in any game without the opportunity for a foreign city road/rail bonus from the SSC. With that bonus, it's a more even balance. Had you built a colosseum instead of ST you would, perhaps, have had 4 more caravans delivered for cash or available for SS parts and might have been able to launch a turn or two earlier. Hard to say.

[solo]

samson,

336 BC was a typo, of course, and has been corrected. It is hard not to take advantage of map pre-knowledge in a replay, but I did go out and explore first with a trireme, "discovering" where the Carthaginians were before returning later with cargos to trade with. Though replays don't "count" and can't be compared to your 356 result attained without map pre-knowledge, they are useful for trying out and comparing the success of different ideas. I hope you did not get the wrong impression that the unavoidable coincidence of my landing a turn earlier in a replay was in any way an attempt to "beat" your 356 date. I'm more interested in participating in finding the best strategy than in being the one who sets the record.

solo

p.s. I still stick with ST over colosseum, as my SSC grew to size 20 and provided extra income through extra taxes, especially after adding economic improvements later when I could set science down a few notches. I reached 231 trade arrows with my SSC at size 18.

[samson]

Solo,

It's interesting that your replay came out so close to my original landing date, as did Ribannah's playing of your medium map start. Perhaps, every start has its own earliest possible date based on pre-existing factors and the best play can only converge on that limit whatever strategy is employed. Breakthroughs, like the railroad bonus effect, are necessary to push that limit to an earlier date.

[solo]

samson,

I agree that each start probably does have a built-in limit. In my replay, I thought I started to really get the hang of playing early Republic about as well as you do it, but must admit that pre-knowledge of the SSC site had me reserving that second starting settler to "find" it. Even so, it was founded a turn after yours, so that particular bit of knowledge just kept me even.

During replays, I try to play them as if I did not know the map, to obtain a valid comparison of different ideas under the same circumstances, but this is HARD to do faithfully. One thing I resisted in this game was heading straight for the purple civ to gain a research edge. If anything, I was a bit later meeting them than in the first game. In the first game, I sacrificed all for ealry science to gain experience with that method, but learned that this is may not be the best way to proceed. I believe that early exploration by sea should not be forsaken. Besides "finding" the Carthaginians earlier, I found some more helpful huts, one with an advanced tribe on that small island to the east of Carthage. I also consider the use of a harbor in this game to be a minor breakthrough of sorts. I believe those added arrows EARLIER in the game were what gave me a chance to land in the 300's. All things considered, I believe that a replay allowed me to land four or five turns earlier than a first try using the same ideas.

One thing I did try later was replaying from the point where I was about to research Sanitation. I had the idea that maybe size 12 with a railroad would be enough, and that one more tech could be skipped and less celebration would be required. This "shoestring" approach would appeal to you, I bet! Anyways,
I skipped Sanitation and was just barely able to keep up the tech per turn pace with size 12, but I did not have enough to build a spaceship in time to make this idea pay off. It may be worth trying again in the future.

I am a bit worried that another major breakthrough is needed to do much better, because it is hard to improve upon the start you found for this game! Both SSC sites were so good, it's not worth quibbling over which one was superior. I'm hoping Ribbanah will give this start a try too, and maybe find that missing element needed to push landing dates even lower.

A minor point about triremes under Democracy. A temple would work, I guess, if you meant using a trireme from a size one city. With a size 3 city, a temple AND about 60-70% luxuries are needed to keep those stupid rowers happy.

solo

p.s. what about your new tech path idea? Any news to report?