Apolyton Hall of Fame

[debeest]

OK, guys. I think it's time to start acknowledging the most brilliant and useful insights produced by our hard-working Apolytoners. Nobel Prizes. MacArthur "genius" grants. Or at least, recognition in some place that will always be readily found, similar to the "stuck" GL thread.

Oedo revolution years?

Oedo's (or someone else's?) available-tech-path discovery?

Samson's definitive cost of science? (as always, riding on the shoulders of giants)

Paul's OCC strategy?

DaveV's ICS strategy?

Xin Yu's size-5 strategy?

complete combat calculations? (and who would get that award?)

the recent path to early AC landing?

barbarian studies?


Let's hear from all of you with further ideas. I propose a balloting system wherein each registered member can list the five or ten accomplishments that they think have been most insightful and fundamentally useful.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

Re: Apolyton Hall of Fame

Originally posted by debeest

complete combat calculations? (and who would get that award?)

barbarian studies?

William Keenan wrote the definitive Barbarian Paper over at the Scenario League. There have been a few edits, but I've yet to see anybody come up with even a meek challenge to what he put together.

Altho many threads list the combat formula from my thread as mine, the true credit goes to Bueno and Euclid. Euclid came up with the math, Bueno tweaked it so that it worked perfectly. Are they even active on Apolyton anymore?

[Marquis de Sodaq]

O yeah, you wanted suggestions for the most important ideas. What about the Great Library? SG2, SlowThinker, La Fayette, me , and others put it together. It was SG2's brainchild, so maybe he should be the nominee.

The SSC idea should be on the list.

[rah]

Hands down,

Oedo revolution years.

WHY,
Everything else listed, I aready had figured a high percentage of all of them out, and not having 100% doesn't cause any major problems.

Oedo years where soooo simple, yet it hung out there for so long without it being exposed. Hell, I even did a little research on it and never saw it.

But most important.............
It comes into play in EVERY game, no matter what strat you use.

Of the others.........

tech path discovery, (most of us had the general gist, but not the specifics, enough to manipulate)

Cost of science, same as above. Yes we were sometimes mystified when it would change but not enough to make that big a difference.

OCC strat. A great piece of work, but just for OCC games. Yes it teaches some nice tricks to be applied in everyday games.


Size 5 strat, Not always the optimal strat in certain circumstances.

Combat Calcs, Sorry, the difference between thinking my attack odds are 3 to 1 vs. 2.90 to 1 doesn't affect my decision to attack. And my initial calcs were not that far off.

Early ac landing tech path. Doesn't come into play in the MP games that we play. Bombs away. or never get that far.

Barb studies. A great document, but experience had already helped me learn a large percentage of it and the rest that i wasn't 100% sure about, has not influenced my stratagy at all.
But a very extensive document which I enjoyed reading, despite the dryness of the topic.

This is not a slam on the others. I applaud all their efforts, which were considerably more than Oedo years. But I have to judge it on game to game impact. Heck, I have bookmarked that thread so when I get drunk late in MP games, I don't screw up.

RAH
If I was asked to add something to the above list, it would be the compilation of all the loopholes in the rules that have been discovered. Xin discovered many of them but a lot of people (including myself) have discovered others. This list (which Ming moderated/managed), and the discussions about which are considered cheats (by the majority) and which are not, have made for better MP play. We no longer argue for 30 minutes on what's legit and what is not.

[samson]

Hands down,
Oedo revolution years.
It comes into play in EVERY game, no matter what strat you use ...
This is not a slam on the others ... But I have to judge it on game to game impact.

Frankly, knowing "oedo" revolution years has very little impact on the game, SP or MP.

Yes, the information is used in every game, but its strategic value is nil.
It is simple knowledge of the mechanics of an event that comes into play 2 or 3 times in a game.
It effects neither the outcome nor the strategy of the game to any extent.
No one's enjoyment of Civ2 has been significantly enhanced by it.
It doesn't bring retired Civers out of the woodwork to wonder at it and try it for themselves.

The most significant accomplishment of Apolytoners, IMO, is the development of OCC.
OCC was not simply an observation of an arcane aspect of the game,
nor an explication of a vital principle in detail. It was the creation of both a new way of playing Civ2
and the refinement of a strategy for its success. Nor was it a single person's accomplisment.
It was a group effort over a couple of years that exemplifies some of the best characteristics
of this board and forum. True, not everybody plays OCC, but there are some
who have returned to Civ2 only because of it. In that sense it is much like MP,
except that OCC was developed here at Apolyton not in a software lab.

I agree that OCC in pure form is somewhat esoteric, in that it demands pretty specific
starting conditions. But the principles of OCC play (not just "nice tricks")
can form the basis of highly effective strategies for both AC landing or conquest games.
The fortnight OCC games posted here have often pushed out in new directions.

An event I would nominate for consideration of award,
is the cooperative multi-player AC landing in 6 AD.
Again, I think this demonstrates the great ideas and group efforts that happen in this place.

samson

[rah]

"Frankly, knowing "oedo" revolution years has very little impact on the game, SP or MP.

Yes, the information is used in every game, but its strategic value is nil.
It is simple knowledge of the mechanics of an event that comes into play 2 or 3 times in a game. "


I can only assume that you don't play MP or aren't very competitive when you do.

Planning 3 or more turns in advance to squeeze out that last beaker to get monarchy during an oedo year means 4 extra turns in monarchy. That advantage in MP is huge, especially when most wonder races come down to 1 or 2 turns. And the increase in your ability to spit out settlers due to increased production during those 4 turns can boost your civ 25% or more over your opponents. (4 cities can crank 4 settlers in four turns vs 8 turns in a 2x production game(just an example)) There is also the boosted science for 4 turns which could be an extra tech or two. It's the little things that seperate the good from the bad in MP.


I don't really concern myself with SP, and haven't since the first few months of OCC or a couple of the other challanges. OCC is 95% following the script. MP is were the action is. You may not agree with that, But if it wasn't for MP, I would have stopped playing this game years ago. So please don't take offense.

And I played in that first land in 6 A.D co-op MP game.
It was fun, but it wasn't that special. It didn't take us very long into the game to realize how easy it could be. And the only time I think about it now is when someone brings it up. So lasting achievement, I don't thinks so.

RAH

[Ming]

I have to agree with rah on this one... (duh, no surprise here)

While OCC games got my interest back, and even held a few records before Paul showed us all how to do it right... the Odeo year info is still tops!
As rah mentioned, I helped compile all the known cheats/bugs with the help of many different people here... and Odeo years is better than anything else I have seen.

Yes, the ability to know when you can shift governments is just key in the early part of a mp game. I remember how before we knew about it... the number of turns you had to wait to get into monarchy was considered one of those Key Luck factors that could make or break a game. If you switched right in with no years of anarchy, it was like finding a wandering nomad in the first couple of turns.
We tried everything to find out what determinded it... and pretty much came to the conclusion that it was random... and it was just too simple... it went over all of our heads...

So I vote for the Odeo Years... A brilliant piece of work!

[samson]

Planning 3 or more turns in advance to squeeze out that last beaker to get monarchy during an oedo year means 4 extra turns in monarchy. That advantage in MP is huge ...

So what are you saying? That without the knowledge of oedo years you would lose a lot more games?
Look, it's simply no different than knowing how to rush-build caravans.
It's a fact of the game that everyone is aware of, now.
Therefore, it conveys no strategic advantage on any one player in an MP game,
unless the other players have lost their "oedo" cribsheets or have drunk more beer than you.

As a newcomer here, it's a little strange seeing how much attention
the 4 year revolution cycle receives. I'd have thought most people
would have noticed it after playing a few games.

[Ming]

Yeah... but things like rush building caravans have been know since we played CivI... most of the standard "facts" like that have been known for ages. THIS WAS NEW! and important.
Any yeah, you would have thought somebody would have figured it out... but we didn't. And many people have REALLY disected this game

Simply by knowing the Odeo years, another "luck" factor has been removed... And you gain a strategic advantage by using them to the max.

[samson]

It would only be a "strategic advantage", in MP, if the discoverer had kept the knowledge
to himself and used it to defeat opponents. But as common knowledge, it gives no edge to anyone.

My opinion of this, like yours re: rush-building caravans, is lessened by it not being news.
As an outsider coming into this forum other achievements, such as OCC,
stand out as far more significant but, to each his own.

[War4ever]

I agree with Ming and Rah here.......

not to slight anyones accomplishments in SP..... they are all truly great reads and i have won at all of them too...... albeit not in the record times

However, they are like civ fads. They come and go with some players....... while more people probably SP than MP, i am of the opinion based on what i read on the boards and through the people i know that more people MP than OCC. OCC is fun and what was learned there can easily be integrated into MP or other types of games...... but it wasnt' revolutionary info. It was taking the game to the limits.
I remember when highest population games were the "in" thing..... beating the high scores went back and forth. Nomads challenges, despotism challenges......most cash.... etc.......
OCC was the rage for awhile........ but winning scenarios as minor powers is the rage for some now.......

These things are all fads which come and go and then come back again..... I will grant this about OCC. It is the one challenge that has stayed around the longest...... part of the reason is how quick the game is and how easy it is to mircromanage the city. Large empires are far more time consuming.

Oedo years is incorporated in ALL genres of games and although in SP you can affoard that three turn revolution....... if you have one against myself or some of the other predators out there........ your demise will be quick.

For instance..... if you forget to revolt in the Oedo year..... you wait four more turns till you can rev.....this is killer if your in Despotism.......

The early part of MP is vital for success and an improper revolution or a missed one can sign your death certificate...Oedo years prevents this from happening if your paying attention

[rah]

"Therefore, it conveys no strategic advantage on any one player in an MP game, "


Obviously you don't understand. While almost everyone knows about oedo years, only about half the players really take advantage of it. Most of the less experienced players will only start paying attention to it while they are actually researching Monarchy if even then, the better players started calculating much earlier, and move just enough shields to trade to make the difference 6 to 10 turns out. To hit it within 3 beakers is a skill. And if you don't see that as stratagy, I suggest you check out the dictionary.

RAH
Of course, you go through all that, have a beer and forget to revolt

And even in my last occ game using the gold edition, being short on money, I remember using the oedo year to drop out of demo to demand over 10 grand in tribute with minimal loss.
(i was still never that good at occ)

[Jaguar]

I thought about starting a hall of fame only a week ago, but I decided against it because it would be mostly a repeat of the Great Library. We would have the same things, just in two different threads with different names.

[Blaupanzer]

Highest score, ICS, OCC, earliest landing -- these are all fads that keep the game fresh for those of us playing SP. The person who acheives mastery can be honored, but usually ends up with a thread or a paper in the Great Library, which serves the same effect. Similarly, I agree with the other old hands that the Oedo accomplishment absolutely bowled us over, because everyone had been looking for that formula for years. But looking back (hindsight always being perfect), it should have been obvious. I know, I know, it wasn't. I didn't get it, nor did Ming, Rah, DaveV, the SGs, or any of the other Masters who play this game. But now that it is known, we should have. The child who points out the emporer has no clothes doesn't get the Nobel Prize for it, just the gratefulness of the nation for his acuity.

My candidate for great breakthrough is discovering that beaker costs are related to power standing and that gifting (or being) one particular color can significantly lower your costs. There is nothing obvious in that linkage, even in hindsight. For pure research effort, the relationship between starting techs and civ color engendered more work than any project I have seen in the last few years. (I have lurked since Mark G. started his Greek site.) For sheer effort, Mark G. himself and, for Civ II, Ming (love the new avatar) deserve awards.

[solo]

My thumbs up to any contribution that increases our knowledge about the game. I pick up some very useful things from obscure posts, so believe that anyone who has posted information that has helped my game should be included. That list would include every player here.