The Wonders...my impressions

[Sieve Too]

My take on the WS vs. ST thing: If you have JSB, then WS is better than ST. While ST eliminates all unhappiness, you limit your military's flexibility by being forced to go to the ST city first. While this is easy for ground units on the same rail-connected continent, once your empire expands to new continents, it is a major nuisance. For air and sea units, it is always a problem.

WS with JSB allows 2 units per city to be gone without unhappiness. After that, your cities can usually handle 3 or 4 additional units away without any major problems. Large cities with 11+ happy citizens can support more even without JSB. Best of all, you get to start sailing that vet AEGIS directly to where you want it, instead of backwards to the ST city.

But if you still like the no-unhappiness idea a lot, you can accomplish it without building ST at all if you have either JSB or CFC. Just build a city on either Iron, Peat or Oil and have your citizen develop a mined, railroaded hill or a rr'ed forest. Rush build Factory and then a XXXX plant if you don't have HD. You'll have a size 1 city that will never grow and is producing 18 or 20 shields. Because JSB guarantees 2 content and CFC guarantees 1 happy, the city can support all its military units outside of a city/fort without any unhappiness under Dem. Best of all, you can build more than just one city like this, assuming you find the right terrain.

[Havelock Vetinari]

I've always thought ST was a bit overrated...generally I have my luxuries up around 30% in a democracy, so very rarely are people unhappy, especially with assorted temples and stadiums and other wonders. Even on some of the higher difficulties, it's not really going to save you that much...it's just one city...easier to spread the production and cost around where it won't be felt. Sure, it saves building a temple etc. [sarcasm] This is such a huge benefit it is worth it alone [/sarcasm].

As for the other wonders, ASTC is one of my favourites...saves me a mint (no upkeep on costal batteries, marketplaces, libraries, temples, harbours, granaries if you don't have pyramids). approx 4 per city a turn, for about 50 cities, is a fair saving. UN/WS combo is essential for a fighting democracy. Pyramids saves you a fortune. SoL give you early commy/fundy, shich is always nice.

In general, I don't like single city wonders (except for science...CO and INC make a good combo). In a empire of 50-150 cities, you look at them and think "it's just one city". Rarely will (or should) one city stand out in such a large number...that's why across the board wonders (WS, JSBC, MC) are much, much more valuable.

Incidently, why does ST require medicine?

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May you live in Interesting Times...

[valmont]

Havelock: it's just a question of playing style. I've never played a game where I had 50 cities and I don't intend to. My typical empire has about 16 cities by the end of the game. I'm trying to work on lowering this number! Adam Smith says he plays with 8-10 and that sounds about right. With an empire this size you might as well build cathedrals by hand instead of building the wonder (unless you also wish to inconvenience your opponent).

[Havelock Vetinari]

you're right, of course, wonder preference depends almost entirely on playing style.
I prefer (attempting) conquering most of the rest of the planet, which usually results in a massive empire. I usually play vs AI as well, as I don't have the multiplayer game.
I couldn't really imagine an empire of 16 cities...it's really not my style...what is the average size of your cities/empire population?

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May you live in Interesting Times...

[Campo]

[b]...what is the average size of your cities/empire population?

Having read several older strategy guides before locating this forum, my approach was always expansionist. At game completion (conquest or AC) I usually had about 60 cities, average size about 12.

However I'm changing my approach -- I want to do it with fewer cities. It's partly the challenge, but it's mostly the time. It takes forever to play a game with 50+ cities. I'm hoping to play more efficiently, with fewer cities, and finish a game in 6 hours instead of 20.

On the other hand, I'm not keen on the OCC because I like scouting terrain and founding/developing cities, so I want to do some of it.

[War4ever]

Campo... that is where you are wrong. OCC is the best game to develope your micromanaging skills and such. Although the map is small and only one city, the actual game is not hard to beat but coming anywhere near Pauls record for me is near impossible. Everything is of importance here
and timing is critical.

havelock... playing against the ai.... i understand your philosophy and maybe one city shouldn't stand out.... but against the ai one can pretty much do as one pleases. However, MP is MUCH different and humbling for people. You don't build all the wonders in one city without a big(TARGET) on your head and if you pull ahead and are playing with experienced players expect alliances against you that WILL take part of your civilization away from you. Humans are calculating and very good oponents which is not even part of the AI's vocabulary. I too am a warmonger *sigh* everyone hates me... hehe but they all love picking on me if they can.... those who have played me anyways.

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War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.

[jpk]

War4ever...I could write some stuff about the short lifespan of King Richard; in a way I just did. The truth is I just don't like to fight with horses. Veteran knights are adequate fighters for there time; veteran dragoons and cavalry are excellent in their era. During that period of game play I am always doing something else and don't want to bother with fighting wars.

I really hate it when the AI sinks my ship filled with caravans. If I am not fighting anyone, that is much less likely to happen.

I am not interested in setting records for earliest conquest or AC arrival. I just explore the world and build as nice a civilization as I can.

[War4ever]

JPK.... i guess i can't help but always be in a war.... i will never give away tech to ai or anyone for that matter but i will trade. I am pretty aggresive and will demand tribute which often makes me the bad guy.... i have tried peacefull games hehe and i am still always at war.... my idea of diplomacy does not bode well with the ai... humans are another story

[Havelock Vetinari]

I'll give away techs to the ai if the case warrants it...like railroad or refrigeration...means their empires require less alteration when I kill em.

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May you live in Interesting Times...

[ZhugeLiang]

In My opinion....

I always try and get the great lib in AI games it a great wonder to have especially when the comp sets up their little worldwide defensive alliances. And in human games the Great wall + war acad gives you a huge war advantage. Too many ppl just build a city wall and think that your veteran elaphants can't beat their phalax or pikemen, if the wall is the only improvment there then the chances of destroying it with a diplomat is almost certain (might take a couple trys though). I myself can't live without the mike's chap. The unrest on deity is just too intese without it. The SOL is another good one, not essential, but it can really help you get your stuff togather if you are behind (i.e. WLT_D in republic then switch to Fundementalism, build some improments then swith to comm reap the rewards without the distress of rep or dem)

[Matthew]

I've never had someone take a mountain top city from me yet, and since I usually play in no city bribe games, I doubt it will happen unless it is a new city. Nothing wrong with building a bunch of wonders there. Unlike the AI people can find devious little ways of making a city virtually unconquerable, at least before Howies, and probably even after Howies. Just a matter of expending the resources.

[Thall]

I have always tried to get hold of the Great Library because due to my warmongering attitude I always found it handy to just get the techs off it instead of researching them for myself. Of course I always thought it important to keep it out of the hands of the AI.

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The hidden truth supports everything. Find it, and win.

[C Chulainn]

I agree about the Gt. Library: although it's probably worth only a coouple of advances for you yourself, you can't afford to let an AI civ get it since it means every time anyone trades tech, they get a free advance.