The Wonders...my impressions

[jpk]

Smash, If you build Shakespeare's Theatre in a high shield city then your method of supporting an army will work quite well.

Typically I use Shakespeare's Theatre as a science wonder. I build it in the city with the Hanging Gardens and then, after I go to Republic or Democracy I set the luxury rate sufficiently high so that the city grows to the high teens or low twenties in population. Because this is my plan from the beginning, the city is located in a high trade low shield area. The cost associated with this strategy is that I build Women's Sufferage. By that stage of the game money is not a big problem. I deliver caravans for a few turns and then buy the remaining shields.

Another part of this is that I simply like to build Wonders.

[Steve Clark]

Cool! I get back from vacation and there's another opinion list.

As I only have played single, I agree with Smash as amended by finbar.

I think alot of my strategies originated from reading that online strategy guide (by ?) what talks about a Science City and a Production City.

The only comment has to do with Pyramids/HG which I don't build because I favor a slow, steady city growth. However, in my next set of games, I'll try somethings differently: maximize production to increase trades; get away from a militaristic play style and go for AC. In those cases, I'm sure my opinions of the wonders will change.

[BlackJack]

For me, the thing with Darwin isn't so much that I want the advances - it's way to expensive just for that - it's that I don't want the AI to get the advances. I mean, as the game moves into the later stages, my 2-5 lead in advances dwindles to 1-2 in a blink - 5 AIs working together on 2-3 tech paths while you're working one. And life gets kinda miserable when the Mongols are close and they get Mobile Warfare before me. Or when anybody get Rocketry and Fission before I get the Laser.

[War4ever]

jpk..... when you talk about womwns sufferage and such.... are you talking about all the extra troops from your other cities... as you know that shakes eliminates all unhappiness from one city which with high shields makes it easy to field an army.
i suppose Sufferage allows for an even larger army

[Sieve Too]

Great replies all around!

My comments:

I like Shakes but it is a royal pain doing all that homing of units. And on multicontinent worlds - forget it. Worse, sea and air units may take many turns to get to the your city with Shakes - and then many more to get back where you want them. Women's Suffrage allows you more flexibility.

On that same note, JSB is actually a slightly better Wonder than MC if you favor Democracy, especially after Communism. JSB does its work after the effects of miltiary unhappiness, whereas MC works before it. So JSB can eliminate the effects of 1 unit away under Dem, or 2 under Rep or Dem + WS. Note: a size 1 or 2 city under Dem can never go into disorder if you have JSB, regardless of the number of units away.

Darwin: if you're not a warmonger and like to play as a Dem, you can get Darwin for free. How? Wait til after your next discovery, then set science to 0%, taxes to 80%, start building Darwin. After 3 or 4 turns, just buy it. You'll have 2 more advances in no more than 4 turns and be no poorer. That's a pretty good science rate for the mid-game!

Hanging Gardens: For a fairly long stretch early in the game, HG gives you the effect of the Colossus in the city that it's built in, i.e. Rep level trade under Monarchy when city size is 6 or less or 7 with an Elvis. So HG is not only a happiness wonder, it's a science wonder too.

Great Wall: 1) Barbs are wimps. If they take a city, you now have an oppurtunity to bribe cheap NON units. 2) Peace? with the Mongols? When have they EVER kept a peace treaty? 3) City Walls? Why do you need those? If barbs, see #1. If the AI, you need a lesson in real city defense: Picket units plus Diplos and Elephants/Crusaders and road connected cities. Don't let the AI near your cities.

[Flavor Dave]

Amendments:
1. WS--it's nice to have. The value is that if you have it, the AI doesn't which means you won't be running into any aggressive democracies. Aggressive democracies are a bear to fight against, cuz you can't bribe a city to force peace.
2. The Oracle is very good if you want to go early republic. It + HG means it's very easy to get your cities to size 7-8. If I'm in great terrain (almost exclusively hills and grassland, with some rivers), I usually build a small civ, expand it with Republic love, then expand judiciously, and use the mined hills to build tons of caravans, and all the key mid-game wonders. With only 5-8 cities, nobody will mess with you until you've built an unbeatable civ.

Also, the AI doesn't care much for theology, so this one lasts a long time if built early.

3. SETI--the MOST OVERRATED wonder in the game. When you get it, what is left to discover? Often, it's only value to me is getting stealth a couple of turns earlier.

Remember, it only works in cities that have universities. How many universities do you have? If I have a bunch, I build it. If not, I go for the research lab in the science city, and forget about it.

4. KRC is great in the right city (high food and trade, low shields.) Another wonder that you should build right at the beginning of engineering. If you aim for it, and build it early, it's great. I've built it in a city with a bunch of water squares, then turned around and built the Colossus immediately. Then that city sent caravans to overseas foreign cities every 3-4 turns. Cha-ching!! That was one awesome civ.

5. ST--great for two things. A navy, and vet. partisans. A cadre of vet partisans can wreck a perfectionist civ. Pillaging mined hills costs 4 shields at least, usually 8 (factory plus power plant), EVERY TURN. Plus, they cut off reinforcements.

6. Sun Tzu--recently I've considered this to be a near must-have, if my civ has any size at all. If I have plans to hit even 10 cities right after Mike's, then I want it. Bad.

7. If I'm exceptionally shield rich, I'll build Eiffel; it seems to prevent sneak attacks, esp. when combined with the UN. But, I consider this the best wonder to conquer rather than build; if it's out there, I know I can take two reputation hits, and still get to spotless.

Unless you're the kind of player who commits to fundamentalist war at SOL, reputation does matter. If your reputation gets low, the AI will never respect cease fires. You need those from time to time, when you're in danger of overreaching. Even one turn can allow sufficient reinforcments.

8. Cure for Cancer. It's kinda nice to have if you're conquering late. It puts one more citizen at work in a newly conquered, large city. If your reputation is bad, that extra worker may be what you need to get walls built in two turns instead of three. Also, it allows one more tax collector in your supermarket, maxed out (size-wise) cities. If you have 10 cities like this, with stock exchanges, that's, what, ~100 G per turn? Still, at 600 shields, this is a WoW I target for conquest, rather than build.

[jpk]

War4ever, what I meant is that each city can contribute one unit to the war effort in its own name. I understand the process of building a unit in one city moving it to the Shakespeare city and then rehoming the unit. To be honest I rarely do that. I am not interested in big armies. I prefer to use a small army to take the capitol, repeatedly if necessary, and then bribe cities. This is financed by vast numbers of caravan and freight units. (ICS = Infinite Caravan Sleaze?).

If you play on a multicontinent world, I think you will find that the cost in shields of bribing a city with the money generated from caravans is less than the cost in shields of taking a city by force. Diplomats and spies are the most powerful units, but they get much of that power from caravans and freight. The down side is you don't get to here the guy yell, "Fire!"

[Hodad]

I made the oracle not be obsolete never to make it compete against other wonders

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Alien Infiltrate

[Sieve Too]

Flavor Dave: I know you can't build Research Labs unless the city has a University first, but I thought they worked in every city.

I've never had much luck with Partisans, vet or overwise. Even a perfectionist civ will have a couple Armor or air units around to blast your Partisans, who are too weak to fight back. Unless you have a continuous stream of Partisans, AI Engineers quickly rebuild and you are out 50 shields. Oftentimes, your other Partisans can't even kill the AI Engineers rebuilding mines. If there are any AI units on the rails, your Partisans won't have enough movement to penetrate to the AI's interrior.

jpk: Consider the shield cost of "vast numbers of caravan and freight units". For a one time cost of around 600 shields, I can build enough Howitzers and Mech Inf to conquer the world. Unlike Caravans and Freight, the units are reusable. Before then, Spies can tear down walls for Cavarly. A couple cities building Spies recovers your losses. Mid to late game size 15+ AI cities are terribly expensive to bribe. If you take the capital, they just move it.

[jpk]

Sieve Too, I play large multicontinent worlds. The strategy I use might not work on small single continent worlds.

Once I get radio I build airports and freight units as fast as possible. In a few turns every one of my cities is connected to an airport by railroad. Most cities will be connected to several airports. I fly freight units to distant cities and deliver them on the next turn. As soon as I can afford to do so, whenever a city starts to build a freight unit I buy enough shields so that the unit is completed on the next turn. If this means buying all 50 shields I do that. After 10 to 15 turns of continual freight building my main money problem is spending the money. If a city costs 5000 coins I bribe it; if there is a unit between my howitzers and the capitol and I don't want to waste a shot on the unit I bribe it; even if it costs 2000 coins.

If you have never played a game where you deliver 10 to 20 freight units per turn, turn after turn, you might want to try it. This is what I meant by Infinite Caravan Sleaze.

A bonus of this strategy is that you can set your taxes to 0%, your luxury rate to 40%, your science rate to 60%, and still get an advance every turn. Becaue the luxury rate is so high the cites are usually celebrating "We Love The President" and growing whenever there is excess food. This increases the value of the freight units. It is a vicious cycle.

[Flavor Dave]

My vet. partisans do alright, cuz they're always on hills. In my experience, it usually takes two armors to knock them out. I lost 50 shields, the AI loses 48 (60% of 80) or 42. Still, it's worth it--I like to take one city that is at 50+ shields, have it build a partisan every turn, and re-home. A half dozen or so are a big help.

Another devilish trick is to have the partisans pillage a mined mountain. Sure, it's only wasting 2 shields per turn, but that partisan will last.

The partisans are more effective, admittedly, when the AI is being attacked on two fronts. Don't know why it is; I'm guessing the AI is reluctant to use an armor outside the city whenever there are units within X tiles of that city.

Remember, that armor that takes out the partisan is an armor that doesn't counterattack your brand new conquest. If your pillaging troops tear down the city walls, that's great.

[War4ever]

jpk..... i understand the whole womens sufferage thing but i don't understand your reasoning for it especially if your usuing a small army. Wouldn't it be easier to just use KRC which costs far less than womens sufferage for your little war machine and prevents unhapiness period as apposed to one unit from each city going to war, which if you are not paying attention can cause unhappiness if you build one too many units from the same city. maybe i am confused here.

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War is the answer when you need to strike first.

War is the answer when you think you should strike first

war is the answer when you think others may strike first.

[Sten Sture]

W4E - I'm sure you mean Shakes, not KRC.

[Sten Sture]

As an addendum: I once insisted to my ally in an MP game that I was almost done building the GL, but I meant the LH and then someone else built the library and I became slightly unpopular...

[War4ever]

oops sorry Sten..... good correction... nice to see people read my posts and that is rather funny what you said )