Leo's and skipping techs

[Sparrowhawk]

I have a question on how Leo's upgrades units, particularly if their are techs missing (skipped).

For example, say a civ has Leo's and Horseback Riding, but doesn't have Chivalry or Leadership. Now lets say that civ acquires Tactics (either by theft from an enemy or gift from an ally).

Does Leo's upgrade the Horsemen? And if it upgrades them, what does it upgrade them to? (Knights even though the civ doesn't have Chivalry? Dragoons? or directly to Calvary...similar to the upgrade from Warriors to Muskateers bypassing Phalanx and Pikemen)

Anyone know?

p.s. Another question, I did some testing on the above, and with Leo's and Horsemen, and adding Monotheism, units don't automatically upgrade to Crusaders near as I can tell (or Elephants for that matter). What techs make it so that Horsemen are no longer in the build list? (I am guessing any of Chivalry, Leadership or Tactics)

[Scouse Gits]

A good question - and one I know that SG(2) would have been able to answer.

[rah]

Yes, you must have Chiv before horse will upgrade or become obsolete.

[Elephant]

Horse will stay on the list till Chiv, and Chariots will upgrade to Elephants and then to Crusaders. Knights upgrade to Dragoons, then to Calvary. Warriors and Phalanx will stay till Feud or Gunpowder. Musketmen replace Warriors, Phalanx, Archers, Legions, and Pikemen. Caravels replace Triremes, but get replaced by Galleons rather than Frigates. Transports replace Galleons, and Destroyers replace Frigates and Ironclads.

There was a thread on this way back; I'll see if I can find it again.

EDIT: Here it is- it was SG(2), back in 2000:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=33828#post33828

[Sparrowhawk]

Hmm, I have read both this thread (thanks for the answers ) and the thread that Elephant linked to, but though I now have the answer to my first question, I am not positive about the first.

If I understand Rah correctly, you are saying that my Horsemen, with Tactics and Leo's will not upgrade until I get Chivalry (and Leadership). Sorry for asking for clarification, but this is a key point, I am about to "acquire" tactics, and want to be able to build Alpine Troops and Calvary if possible, and research Amphibious Warfare, but I need to know if I should be rushing more Horsemen for the upgrade yet or if it will still be possible to produce Horsemen post Tactics (but Pre-Chivalry and Leadership)

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Sparrowhawk

If I understand Rah correctly, you are saying that my Horsemen, with Tactics and Leo's will not upgrade until I get Chivalry (and Leadership). Sorry for asking for clarification, but this is a key point, I am about to "acquire" tactics, and want to be able to build Alpine Troops and Calvary if possible, and research Amphibious Warfare, but I need to know if I should be rushing more Horsemen for the upgrade yet or if it will still be possible to produce Horsemen post Tactics (but Pre-Chivalry and Leadership)

rah is correct; without Chivalry, no upgrade. If you "acquire" Tactics then you can build cav/alpine--and horsemen. The horse troops will not upgrade until you go back for Chivalry. You can mass produce them for later upgrade. Dont know how many more ways to say this.

If you can get Tactics w/o Chivalry this will keep the 20g slot available for rush-building. That is a good thing.

Monk

[Sparrowhawk]

okay, that is what I thought he was saying, just needed to be sure.

Thanks for clarifying all, this could be most beneficial

[Bloody Monk]

Should have asked this sooner.

How are you going to "acquire" Tactics??

If I understand correctly, only the AI can steal a tech for which it does not have the prerequisite. I'd be happy to find I am wrong about this.

Perhaps a woebegone AI has been gifted Tactics thru an alliance??

What's up??

Monk

[Sparrowhawk]

LOL, it is a multiplayer game and my ally has the GL and is very close to "acquiring" tactics (or I might just try and steal it from an enemy).........I have Leo's on the other hand, and would like the advantage of having a bunch of Horsemen upgrade to calvary, wasn't sure how soon I needed to plan on this happening.......now that I know Chivalry and Leadership are required, it helps my strategy quite a bit. I don't need to delay acquiring tactics, which will allow me to continue producing horsemen, and also to produce the advances for which Tactics is a prerequisite. All around, a win win situation I think......now to make it work!

Edit: Though I am not sure, I don'tthink a human player requires the prerequisites to "acquire" a tech. Anyone with knowledge greater then my own care to clarify ?

[Scouse Gits]

You are right there Sparrow - prereqs are ONLY needed to research a tech - all other methods of acquisition are not so hindered

Stu

[Scouse Gits]

Just thought of a good example that we have all seen - when talking to a AI early in the game they frequenrly have both Masonry & Construction on offer - and we know which one we choose don't we boys

Stu

[Carolus Rex]

Originally posted by Scouse Gits

Just thought of a good example that we have all seen - when talking to a AI early in the game they frequenrly have both Masonry & Construction on offer - and we know which one we choose don't we boys

Stu

Masonry for the GW?

Hm... SH, after reading this thread I'd better check i) if it pertains to our 7 player PBEM and ii) what kind of treaty we have...

Carolus

[DaveV]

Sparrowhawk - horsemen can be built until Chivalry is discovered. Since horsemen upgrade to knights, I'm pretty sure your horsemen will not upgrade until you discover Chivalry (at which point they will upgrade to knights, dragoons, and cavalry).

Carolus - it's pretty obvious which game he's talking about. Last time I checked, Sparrowhawk is a member of the opposition.

P.S. to Sparrowhawk - don't count on your ally holding the GL too much longer (unless you're planning on switching sides?)...

[rah]

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Good thread Nice to be reminded of some of the tricks to Leo. One thing I try to do is rush the Warrior I was building 2 turns before I finish Leo - 20 free shields if I have Gunpowder! If done right, you can save a lot of shields this way... constructing your army right before Leo is built. It's even better if you can get the Horse-Cavalry upgrade almost immediately, like SH

Free shields are available in the Warrior upgrade, the Phalanx/Pikemen upgrade (to Muskets), the Cannon-Artillery ugrade, Horsemen-Knights-Dragoons-Cavalry, Cruiser-AEGIS, etc... (you lose shields if you have Legions; consequently I don't think I've ever built one)

BTW, Elephant, I'm 99.9% sure that Frigates don't upgrade into anything...