Cheating in PBEMs; A scenario designer's response.

[Exile]

For what it's worth;

A quick glance at the PBEM forum will reveal that there are a good number of them designed by yours truly. It was formerly the case that, when one of my scenarios was complete, I would happily advertise it in a thread and request a PBEM test run. Hopefully, I don't have to go into WHY a test run is advisable.

However . . .

When a player cheats in one of the test runs (and, IIRC, that did indeed occur), it tends to spoil, at least partially, my intent in conducting the test run in the first place. Not to mention how frustrating it is. Sadly, I watched these test runs and other PBEMs using my scenarios and, to be absolutely honest, I picked out the cheaters before anyone else did. I KNOW certain things about my own scenarios and could tell very quickly that some events taking place were not right.

I kept quiet about it, however.

I just read the hot debates about cheaters and listing them and felt that I should express my own opinion.

For the record;

I support the list.

WHY?

It will tell me immediately who NOT to allow into a test run. I have my own agenda here--to produce a quality scenario. That agenda is compromised by cheaters. I don't like that. I want to know.

Some info on moi;

I am; 44 years old, have been on ACS longer than most everyone else commenting on this issue so far (with the exceptions of Techumseh and St. Leo), overeducated, professional historian.

This is MY OPINION and NOT debatable. The responses I would like to see in this thread will, hopefully, come from other scenario designers. Please NOTE THIS!

[St Leo]

That's an interesting attitude and possibly acceptable in your situation, but I am getting rid of the list if it becomes adopted by the general public.

The idea is to maintain a criminal record as a tie-breaker in cases of suspected cheating and not to assume that everyone on the list is a cheater by default.

[Case]

Leo, can you please explain? I thought that 'the list' was solely for listing proven cheaters, and not keeping track of "criminal records" (whatever that means!)

[St Leo]

I don't want people kept from joining games because they are on the list. If you can't think of other uses for the list, please abstain from looking at it.

[techumseh]

You're getting rid of the list "if it becomes adopted by the general public"? What does that mean? Either you support the list as a means to EXCLUDE cheaters from PBEM games or you don't.

But even if you don't support it, that doesn't mean that you should use (or mis-use) your mod powers to close the thread, any more than you should have used those powers to top the thread.

[conmcb25]

Lets be nice here guys and respectful, I support the list and I want to use the list. Please dont lose that privledge! And hats off to Exile! I agree 100% even though I am not a scenario designer.

[Patient English]

I also think the list is a good idea - for designers like myself in playtests - but also for individuals who also want to know who NOT to trust in a PBEM, and therefore hopefully avoid many wasted hours invested in a cheat-ruined game.

If someone gets on the list for an infringement, they can always re-register and build up a new rep. The inconvenience of having to do so should be a strong deterrent to cheating in the first place....

If they get on the list in error, there should be an appeals process. But the mod's decision is final, and I would rather see the odd innocent punished here, than uncontrolled cheating ruin everyone's fun. A truly wronged individual can always re-register - it's a pain, but it's not like they have been executed!

[St Leo]

If someone gets on the list for an infringement, they can always re-register and build up a new rep.

Actually, we at Apolyton frown on Double Logins.

Could this discussion please wait until we actually get to utilise the list? There is no reason to create controversy.

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by Patient English
I would rather see the odd innocent punished here, than uncontrolled cheating ruin everyone's fun. A truly wronged individual can always re-register - it's a pain, but it's not like they have been executed!

Hell, NO !

I don't mind the list, but I won't accept that it's ok to sometimes put an innocent in the list rather than let a guilty one escape!

People should only be put in the list once they are PROVEN cheaters! Strong suspicions aren't enough, IMO...

[techumseh]

"There is no reason to create controversy." Heavens no, we wouldn't want that. Actually, we've already HAD this discussion (several times), it's been divisive, and I don't want to repeat it just 'cause Exile missed out on it the first few times.

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Cyrion


Hell, NO !

I don't mind the list, but I won't accept that it's ok to sometimes put an innocent in the list rather than let a guilty one escape!

People should only be put in the list once they are PROVEN cheaters! Strong suspicions aren't enough, IMO...

I agree with Cyrion and I believe that is Darius's original intent. Proven cheaters only. And Ming and St Leo have already said if any "suspected" as opposed to "proven" cheaters are posted then the poster will get a vacation to mingopolis!

And dont forget to keep this discussion professional please! Thanks!

[Cyrion]

Originally posted by conmcb25
And dont forget to keep this discussion professional please! Thanks!

Was that for me ??

[Exile]

Thanks.

Thanks for the contributions to this thread from St. Leo, Techumseh, Case, and John. The fraternity of Civ2 scenario designers is a small one and I didn't know what kind of response I'd get. I'd still like to hear from Paul, Stephan, Bernd, Carl, and the Magyar crusader on this.

Thanks also to the non-designers.

Tech is correct and I agree with him; I don't want to see the same tired issues brought up. The whole business seems painfully clear to me;

Verified cheater = ON THE LIST

I don't see any controversy here. If someone does, then I'd suggest they drop the dramatics and get real.

(Probably an unrealistic request )

What I'm after are the opinions and comments of my fellow designers. PBEM is a relatively new phenomenon in the Civ2 world, one that, modesty aside, I feel that I had a strong hand in initiating (though not the only hand, by any means). The fact that anyone DID cheat in these games frankly surprised me. I suppose that it shouldn't have, but it did. I'm curious to see the reactions of the rest of the "fraternity" and see how they feel. I can imagine that I don't feel quite as betrayed as the actual players in the PBEMs, however. For me, it was simply frustrating.

BUT . . .

There is also this; If someone either inside or outside of a given PBEM is watching the game, trying to determine for themselves whether or not one of mine is a quality scenario or not, the antics of a cheater can give a skewed impression of what the scenario is and how it works, thus undermining the work I've put into it to make it a quality scenario.

Further commentary?

[conmcb25]

Originally posted by Cyrion


Was that for me ??

No just a reminder for everyone, the last time we tried this the thread got way out of hand and it got closed. I think we owe Exile the chance to hear opinions of his fellow scenario designers thats all. I just want us all to be carefull and respectfull of one another, OK?

[Patient English]

So (pardon my ignorance) how do you VERIFY a cheater, unless they confess, or are very stupid?