Lets end this once and for all

[Eyes_Of_Night]

Did he cheat? Yes or no? Simple as that.

[Ming]

This message has been edited. The original message was the typical Ming warning to stop the crap going on between CivFanatics and Eyes. I have deleted some nasty threads from BOTH sides. To quote MarkG, take it somewhere else.

However... Eyes has been talking to me on ICQ. He raises a valid point. It is the tradition and MY RULE of the MP forums that you don't accuse people of cheating without proof. If you don't have proof, you just shut your mouth. These forums are not meant to provide a vehicle for libel and slander. Eye's point to me was simple. I have provided the proof, and I have done it in a non insulting or flaming manner. Why won't you let this stay up when you let people post proof on other people that cheated

All I could say was.... good point.

So... This thread will stay open. If somebody uses it to flame, they are toast. If it is used to attack another forum... they are toast. This is meant as a discussion. Does the proof Eyes provide prove that his opponent cheated.

As always, it is in everybodies best interest to know who the known cheaters are.

So, I can't deny Eyes the exact venue that was used against him.

But remember... this is a discussion, and NOT A FLAME FEST.
It will be monitored VERY CLOSELY...

So vote and discuss!

[SlowwHand]

I'm going to wait until morning to look , but good form.
Having been informed of the situation in question, I was hoping for the chance to exam in public forum.

All deserve to have their case examined, and that includes Eyes.

Quite frankly, before I even look, I suspect Eyes to be correct.
For all our mouthing at one another, I've known him to make this type accusation on rare occassion; and it was always warranted.

That's not to say that Eyes is incapable of the same , it means he has the ability to spot such a situation.

[Smash]

There is nothing unusual with the food situation.Normal for this type game.Represents alot of painstaking work with food freights.

The units are somewhat unusual.I can think of reasons why they are not updated.1 would be Leo's wasn't built until it was obsolete.That does seem strange.But not enough to condemn this game.

I can say from succession games that shadowdale is a briber.Big time.Early Republic,juice taxes,buy the world before they can go Demo.Leo's would not be needed for him to pound each ai to 1 city in the "traditional" manner.

[Eyes_Of_Night]

Ah but smash look at the AI graphs. Notice anything strange? Look at the viking graph. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't know the AI graph did the same thing as the human graph when it gets reset. Also, just to do that amount of cities is pretty tough. And he does all that by 1800AD.

[Smash]

ok...
Once the game is "tilted' like this the pg goes wonky.Andu's study shows why it happens to the player..but why it happens to the ai is unknown.You tell me.If I saw this flucuation at 1000bc I would wonder but not after the maximums have been exceeded.I can't remember the #s right now.

The only "odd" thing is some old units but I think I know why they are there.

1st there are some muskets in what was once Russia by the looks of things.I believe these cities were bribed after or near the expiration of Leo's.They were either muskets or got only 1 upgrade before expiration.I think it was the first as there is a legion in Grozny.That legion could also have come from a barb bribe,,but I doubt it.

Next we have some ancient units in what was America.These cities were bribed after Automobile.Its fairly obvious when you see that a nation(America) was bribed.I'm not at all surprised the ai only had pikes,archers and catapult at the time of bribing.

There is a musket in Lahore that could have come from anywhere.Barb bribe.Ai bribe.1 Leo's update.

As far reaching 255 by 1750...well thats not super duper hard.His cities are spaced because he plays that way.Thats not unusual.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by Smash
There is nothing unusual with the food situation.Normal for this type game.Represents alot of painstaking work with food freights.
.

Umm if he using Food caravans doesnt this prevent the strarving, why is their so muc hstravation if he using food caravans !!

[SlowwHand]

Deity.
The power graph looks whack, and what's with the family size?
Is that a negative number?

[StrategicKing2]

Proof..smoof... in this game it is so easy to construct proof that nothing can be proven. One reason I , for 1, will wait for something better.........

Still waiting for Civ III..................

[Eyes_Of_Night]

First of all, the graph doesn't dip that many times. The most I've ever seen it dip is twice. This one dips and goes up like 5 times. Also, he would have to have had automobile by 1400AD or sooner because that's when the powergraph plummets for Russia. Also I've seen this guy play before, he plays like a beginner. I beat him with 1 city against his 4 the last time we played. Maybe if we had some earlier saves....I'd be very surprised if he had no earlier saves of this game.

[SlowwHand]

Well, wait over there will you?
The stench is atrocious.

Glad to see you got away from that dog.

[General Maximus]

look at the defense minister, look at the casualties, and the time line. look at the other civs casualities.

also, the vikings were "an agressive expansionist", and yet the capital is on an island, with no expansion happening. look at the "AI" civ cities, they are all in perfect locations, the AI doesn't do that.

most cities do not even have units in them, and it took 5 minutes of hitting enter to get to the next turn.

this is a joke

[SlowwHand]

Maximus makes good points.

AI cities, even advanced tribes in huts, seem to always be off a square from where they should be.
That's been discussed, the advantage of a nomad over an advanced tribe.

I think there's something rotten going on.

[Rasputin]

you could always tell when the AI had taken over a civ for a period becasue of wher eit built its citys. A number of games i palyed in the AI built citys that totally surrouned special resouces but didnt actually get any city sqaure to fall on it.. This is espceaiily tue of whales, i began to think the AI didnt like whales !!!

[Smash]

Once again,there is nothing odd about the food situation.Nothing.

Max's points do not stand up to close scrutiny.

The casualty thing doesn't show anything.Once a civ is destroyed it no longer appears there.

Looks to me like restarting civs was on.Trondheim is not the 1st blue civ.There is Berlin and Paris.Paris is of particular interest as Lyons,Tours and Orleans has also been built.That was once a French AI.Lyons and Paris overlap and there was another city to the left of Paris that was destroyed.

There no way to call this cheating beyond doubt.I looked at many a game and this one is not impossible or even improbable.

Auto by 1400?..so?..no big deal here.He probably had it much earlier than that.I would say between 500 and 1000ad.

This is highscore game against the ai.You don't have to be great MPer to do this.Not at all..I don't see how losing a MP game has anything to do with this.

bottom line:
Anything in this game could be cheated.It also could be done by legitimate means.I am not amazed or blown away at all by this game.