new mill game controversy

[Guest]

This is a difficult one.

Elendil is I believe technically correct and I was going to vote for the replay but I've thought more deeply about it, keeping the spirit of the game in mind. The rules are important but they do get contested in certain circumstances and this can lead to enrichment.

Because Capo took the city with an Engineer, which is not an attacking miltary unit, I think there is a sufficient grey area here to praise Capo for an innovative and exciting tactic. True, I would have been upset too if this had happened to me but then again lots of things have happened to me in this game and other games and by and large I just let them go and I play on.
This is my advise to Elendil too. He's losing a Size 2 or so city.
I just lost 2 Engineers the turn before because of that friggin simul bug where it says you don't have enough support for the units but you really do. I'm also totally disadvantaged by the LAG and I find I've got to plan my moves around this constraint. Even then after 20 mins I don't always finish my turn. I could go on and on but on balance I say we play on.

And please, don't anyone say that I'm just supporting my ally.
It sucks for me to play on cos I didn't finish moving my units on that last turn and the host (Markus) just quit because we were arguing for ages!
Personally I'd really like the replay but my vote is for Capo and that the rules be clarified so that we can all use this tactic. It's too easy to under-defend and it's less realistic.


So please, let's not get into arguments about WHY people voted a certain way. Let's just accept each others vote in good faith and move on.

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by deity (edited April 15, 2001).]</font>

[Curumbor Elendil]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by CapTVK on 04-15-2001 08:37 AM</font>
just dropped by to see what this discussion was all about. I haven't read the complete thread but what it seems to boil down to is the declaration of war. As I pointed to Capo rules in a diplogame should be seen as Guidelines. They are intended to keep the game flowing, not hamper it.

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Violating one of the rules of the diplo game is just like violating one of the rules of the game. If you use cheat-o-matic, that's the exact same thing. If someone uses cheat-o-matic, you work out a diplomatic solution "in the game"? That's absurd!

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Apparently some people believe that because war isn't allowed in a diplogame they don't have to focus on their military. Nothing is farther from the truth. Nations that don't keep up their defenses must be prepared to pay a price for that. Or better have some strong military allies to help them out if some "upstart nation decides to put their palace to the torch".

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I have focused on my military and will continue to focus on it. I built Sun Tzu's, for Pete's sake.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

Deity, you ignore the fact that the only reason Capo was able to take the city was that I thought he would obey the rules. I had a unit in the city and disbanded it because I knew he couldn't attack!! Now apparently he can attack, but the usefulness of his attack is due solely to the fact that I was under the impression that it was illegal. This is just rich.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[The Capo]

Running count is Capo 3, Curumbor 1.

I need one more vote. Finbar? Markus? Berzerker? We have yet to hear from you (I know its Easter, so I can wait)...

[markusf]

I vote with for capo. Similar bending of the rules where used against me. And if you play the AI, taking a empty city from a AI when in dem is the only way you can create a act of war. Because the senate never lets you attack otherwise.

And diety we both know that you will stay the strongest this game, simply because of the size of your empire and the number of wonders you have. All my wonders are useless, and i don't have the production or irrigation...

[Guest]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by markusf on 04-15-2001 01:41 PM</font>
And diety we both know that you will stay the strongest this game, simply because of the size of your empire and the number of wonders you have. All my wonders are useless, and i don't have the production or irrigation...
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ROTFLMAO!

he he

This is the first time I've seen Markus put the use of psychlogy and propaganda ahead of his ego!

We all love ya man

But we all know that your trade strats rock so we are not fooled either... you are the big danger in this game and now you are allied with the Supreme Berzerker.


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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[Guest]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Curumbor Elendil on 04-15-2001 10:56 AM</font>
Deity, you ignore the fact that the only reason Capo was able to take the city was that I thought he would obey the rules. I had a unit in the city and disbanded it because I knew he couldn't attack!! Now apparently he can attack, but the usefulness of his attack is due solely to the fact that I was under the impression that it was illegal. This is just rich.

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I know it sucks and I would be upset too. That's not the point.
We are voting on this which is akin to an umpires ruling on the rules mid-game.

You and Capo along with CapTVK should work together on the diplo formula because this discussion has brought out some interesting views.
We have to move on.

Capo and Elendil, what do you think would be a fair in-game punishment for perhaps technically breaking the rules?

In game I suggested ceding back the city but the loss of pop points makes this a bit silly.
100+ Gold?
Give him the Engineers but allow him to move them away?
Spend a night in London with Queen Boudicca

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*deity of THE DEITIANS*
aka: half-assed dieticians
icq# 8388924

[The Capo]

Versailles palace, outside of Paris...

The General stepped upon his balcony, his leadership tainted by the recent fall of the French Democracy. He had been able to achieve power through the military, but things did not look good. He had invaded Algeria, ran a sneak attack against the Austrians, but filed a war declaration minutes before the first assaults were launched, politically he was fine. He looked over the crowd amassed below, they were quite patriotic for a country in Chaos...

"Friends, you are gathered here today for answers. Our troops landed upon the Algerian beachhead only days ago. Our forces marched undaunted into the city of Algeria and pulled down that wreteched flag of Austria! In its stead was raised the tricolor of our great land. My friends, other nations may abhore our actions but I do not. Other nations abhore our people, our ways and our means, but I do not. We are the French, for years we have toiled under the rule of inept aristocrats, for years we have yearned to breathe free air, to live free of the shackles of international politics. We have set ourselves aside from the rest of the world, we have made our message clear: We are strong! We shall not bend to the will of friends or of foes. Now, the Austrians have begged the world to force us to repay them for our acts. They wish now for the world to tell France to give back what is rightfully ours, what we have seized, what the Austrians could not hold. They have asked our allies of Italy and Great Britain, they have asked our friends in Turkey, they have pleaded with their allies; make France give it all back! We deserve what is ours! Well Austria, I could not agree with you more, you DO deserve what is yours. Unfortunantly we have nothing you deserve to own, you have for years attempted to rip our grand alliance with the honorable British and the honorable Italians into shreds. We waited. You levied tariffs and bans against our allies. We waited. Again you pleaded, Napoleon help us deliver Europe from the British, let us trade under their noses, they shall never know! Again we waited. The time became right, our military able, your forces pathetic and non-existant. We seized the moment Austria, we marched gloriously into your pathetic colony and raised our flag high into the air. A testiment to fortitude, a testiment to loyalty, we have showed our allies that we are more than capable of living up to our words, our bonds and our promises. Now, you feel betrayed, now you feel as if something was stolen from you. You wish to plea to the continental powers for restitution, plea as you will, let them levy a punishment upon France! Let them tell me, General Bonaparte to give you our land, let them speak... for that is all it will become. Talk. We have nothing of yours Austria, nothing you deserve, nothing that has been stolen from you. France has what France owns. That is the end of that, if you wish to discuss peace I shall accomodate you, but we shall not give an inch, not one! Viva la Francia, viva la liberte!"

The crowd burst in appraisal, they realized that standing before them was a great man. Standing before them was something France never had, something France yearned for and needed, but never came to this realization. France had a leader....

[Berzerker]

I voted to replay long ago, the vote appears on the first page.

Markus - <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>I vote with for capo. Similar bending of the rules where used against me.
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But you didn't mention this fact to the rest of us until we were playing the next week. Had you told us Curumbor declared war after you had moved and attacked the next turn before you could move, I would have voted to replay just as I voted in this situation.

[The Capo]

I was under the impression that I could do what I did. So what's your point?

[markusf]

haha. I can't stand going back a turn... Thing that really pissed me off was that i nearly took one of curumbers cities further on, and because we had 3 restarts he was able to buy 3 units. (production but no movement). The enternal restarts in simul, with slow moving players really hurts the game. Thats also the main reason i don't want curumber to go back a turn. Capo will lose a turn of movement, AND curumber gets to pour all his money into defence for 2 turns.(wich he normally couldn't)

[easthaven]

After waiting patiently for you guys to calm down and finally decide
on a vote(took you long enough ) I've decided that my vote is to play
on but with capo having an in-game punishment, because he did break the rules and must suffer the consequences. Whether he cede the city or pay taxes to Austria or whatever, frankly I don't really care I just wanna play
on. Well there you have it.

Easthaven X