New Diplogame... who wants in?

[Curumbor Elendil]

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</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Mr Dimbleby on 02-01-2001 11:36 AM</font>
If we do the Diplogame on the World map, I would propose that we play a game based off the World War '79 scenario. If we did something base off ww79 I would suggest that SDI be eliminated.

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Blargh. What's diplomatic about a nukefest?

There may be a multiplayer version of '2194 Days' coming out soon. Now that might be cool.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[The Capo]

I would be against any type of straight Scenario.

[The Capo]

Alright, I propose that we remove SDI and replace Fundamentalism with Facism in this Diplogame.

As far as Cur's comment; "What's so diplomatic about a nukefest?" I have an answer. It was not the SDI that eliminated nuclear war, it was diplomacy by use of the nuke that eliminated nuclear war, thus we will add another diplomatic era to our game by doing this.

The reason I like Facism, is becuase in a diplomatic sense Democracy is an ideal government. Facism is basically a buffed up Fundy, the tech retardation is considerably lowered, the Storm Trooper (formally fanatic) is much stronger, and all of the happyness continues. Thus a facist nation can remain competitive with a Democracy while still gaining the benefits of their large army.

Alright, here is another unning list of the people that have posted here that are interested:

Capo
Chris
Dimbleby
Sun Tzu
War4
Kent
Curumbor

Which is seven, but I have to stress this again, I don't want to just decide "First seven are in" I think we should keep a running pool of players since this probably won't go down for a while. In the mean time we should all get eachother's ICQs (unless that hasn't already occured) so we can plan this out quicker/easier.

Seriously though, I want some preferences, another question is whether or not we should remove Communism and replace it with Socialism for sheer reality purposes, I mean Communism didn't have much staying power in the end, and was never actually done in a "pure" fashion anyway. Thoughts? I am not TOO keen on this though.

Also, what units should we add and changes should we make, like this time I want ot add in a Spy-plane. So let's hear it.

[kent-jo]

We should have a great modpack in this too. I liked the one curumbor elendil had for his last diplogame.

I think the diffeculty should be king, so we don't have to work us to death with happiness.

This is just my toughts.

[The Capo]

Yes Cur that is what I meant about the plane.

But I have to disagree with you again, I think SDI should not be present in this game. You assume that people will inherently use the Nuke before other methods of "raising their stake" can be found or negated.

I think that with SDI it totally counters out the Nuke altogether, it might as well not be in the game in that case. Further, it would make alliances, and secret plots that much more interesting. Why waste all of your nukes in one fell swoop? It leaves a field day atmoshphere for the other five nations. The presence and continuiation of Nuclear weaponry will create a very interesting diplomatic situation; there will be states that are being controlled by others, there will be backstage politicking, there will be things of this nature based solely on Nukes alone, not even combinging resources, trade, tech, space race, and territory.

I think you assume that all of us will play in an all or nothing fashion, where there is victory and defeat, what I intend on doing is assembling a group where victory and defeat are secondary to playing for fun, and in a setting where the fun of diplomacy based on the game is paramount to the mere score of the final session, the variable you propose as reason to keep SDI dissipates.

As for Facism, it opens things up. Fundamentalism was good for a warmonger, but had no real sticking power, eventually you would have to use your weaponry to catch up to the Democrats or you would have to use your army to fight them. Democratic governments can more than produce a good army to take down any Fundamentalist powerhouse, thus eventually Fundamentalism was offset by Democracy. With the changes I had implimented (in the original failed game with Nap and Adam, of which you know the end) I made sufficient changes to create a Facist government that was still generally weaker than Democracy as far as "Social Skills" are concerned, but was stronger as far as "Military" skills were concerned. The Tank fodder (Storm Trooper/Fanatic) of the new Fundy is somewhat superior than the Tank Fodder of choice for a Democrat (Marine) but not completely superior (Amphibious assaults, etc.).

Further, you say we can remove the Bribery flag from Democracy in an effort to reduce the power of Democracy. I don't want to reduce the power of Democracy, its not strong enough in this game, what I want to do is increase the power of Fundamentalism. So I created a Facist unit.

Two other units that were included in the last Mod we made were the Mobile SAM (of which I can explain its importance when asked, but for now trust me it can be useful) and the Longship, which is an ancient "attack trerime."

I think that the changes implemented in the former Diplogame I was going to start are very positive, and were agreed upon by that particular group.

Another thing I wanted to touch on was the presentation of this diplogame, unlike Ozzy who had high hopes as stating it "The Best and Last Diplogame (to finish)" I am going to set my sights a bit more realistically. What I want from this game is an informing and fun game, that the community can be proud of. I want to prove that we can create as ideal a diplogame as is humanly possible, which means we will use a similar "package site" that me and a few comrades are using in our "History of the World" game.

If you haven't seen it, refer to the link above. Thanks and Peace!

[Curumbor Elendil]

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</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 02-02-2001 01:01 PM</font>
But I have to disagree with you again, I think SDI should not be present in this game.

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Neither do I; I don't want nukes in the game at all.

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You assume that people will inherently use the Nuke before other methods of "raising their stake" can be found or negated.

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But if they have nukes and don't use 'em, that still distorts diplomacy, because the threat is there. So a weak player can say: "Give me half your territory or I nuke," and the stronger player has to accede. And even though it's a diplomacy game, I haven't seen evidence in my other diplomacy games that people don't want to win. There was an early diplomacy game that failed to ban nukes, and the effect was disastrous. Have you played a multiplayer game where nukes were in effect? I haven't, but I know if they'd been present in Diplomacy V, they would have been used - by all sides.

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As for Facism, it opens things up. Fundamentalism was good for a warmonger, but had no real sticking power,

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If you want this to be life-like, then that is a pretty good description of Fascism. Its life was even shorter than that of Communism and even more tied to the warfare state. Also, I don't mind having warmongering in diplomacy games - at least on occasion. There is a season for everything.

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Fundamentalism was offset by Democracy. With the changes I had implimented (in the original failed game with Nap and Adam, of which you know the end) I made sufficient changes to create a Facist government that was still generally weaker than Democracy as far as "Social Skills" are concerned, but was stronger as far as "Military" skills were concerned.

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Sounds like the role that Communism is supposed to fill.

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Further, you say we can remove the Bribery flag from Democracy in an effort to reduce the power of Democracy. I don't want to reduce the power of Democracy, its not strong enough in this game, what I want to do is increase the power of Fundamentalism.

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Well, I'm not sure what the difference is. I also think the attraction of Communism needs to be improved. Both Fascism/Fundamentalism and Communism become more attractive when Democracy becomes less so.

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Two other units that were included in the last Mod we made were the Mobile SAM (of which I can explain its importance when asked, but for now trust me it can be useful) and the Longship, which is an ancient "attack trerime."

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I can see the usefulness of the Mobile SAM. As far as the attack trireme - I think a more pressing gap is that before galleon there is no non-attacking sea transport unit that does not cause unhappiness in Republic and Democracy. For that reason, all the diplo games I've played in have had a Trade Vessel unit that was like a trireme but with 0 attack. Of course, there are enough slots so that we can do both.

Another suggestion is to extend the modern military technology a little more by introducing differences in armor and aircraft. After all, WW2 tanks were much superior to WW1 tanks, and likewise with fighters and bombers, but Civ2 treats them the same. In the New Millennium game we have a regular Armor unit and a Heavy Armor unit, and Jet Fighter and Jet Bomber units in addition to the regular Fighter and Bomber. (The capabilities of Jet Fighter, Jet Bomber, and Heavy Armor are basically equivalent to those of the Fighter, Bomber, and Armor in the regular game, while Fighter, Bomber, and Armor in our game have somewhat reduced capabilities and (the Armor and Bomber) are available earlier.)

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Curumbor Elendil]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 02-02-2001 09:29 AM</font>
As far as Cur's comment; "What's so diplomatic about a nukefest?" I have an answer. It was not the SDI that eliminated nuclear war, it was diplomacy by use of the nuke that eliminated nuclear war, thus we will add another diplomatic era to our game by doing this.

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I disagree. In real life diplomacy happens this way, but it's impossible in a civ game. Why? If I'm way behind and I have nukes, I have no reason not to use them. Even if I get nuked back, I've reduced the other civ to rubble. An equality of misery is better in a Civ game than any kind of inequality. Why? Because in Civ games, unlike real life, there are winners and losers. Your absolute standing matters nothing; your relative standing is everything.

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The reason I like Facism, is becuase in a diplomatic sense Democracy is an ideal government. Facism is basically a buffed up Fundy, the tech retardation is considerably lowered, the Storm Trooper (formally fanatic) is much stronger, and all of the happyness continues. Thus a facist nation can remain competitive with a Democracy while still gaining the benefits of their large army.

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OK, but don't do it too much. The principal reason people don't go into Fundy in multiplayer games is that Democracy prevents bribery. If you eliminate city bribery you eliminate this advantage, and I suspect people will be much more likely to go with Fundy, Communism, and other nondemocratic forms.

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Seriously though, I want some preferences, another question is whether or not we should remove Communism and replace it with Socialism for sheer reality purposes, I mean Communism didn't have much staying power in the end, and was never actually done in a "pure" fashion anyway. Thoughts? I am not TOO keen on this though.

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I'm not keen on it either. Communism was unstable in the long run, but as a short-run military strategy it worked pretty well IRL. I favor keeping it the way it is.

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Also, what units should we add and changes should we make, like this time I want ot add in a Spy-plane. So let's hear it.
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Do you mean a reconnaissance plane? I assume you don't mean an aircraft that commit espionage! In the New Millennium game we have a zeppelin unit that has no attack, moves 8, and carries its fuel 6 turns. Very good for reconnaissance.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[The Capo]

Alright well, this is exactly the type of discussion I wanted for this thread. What side does everyone take?

Curumbor's Camp: No facism, weaken democracy, leave SDI in the game, add more modern units.

Capo's Camp: Include Facism instead of Fundy, remove SDI from the game, add in a few more units in differing ages.

I was also thinking we could add in some new tech which would come with corresponding units. We could possibly put SDI in but make its tech requirement very far off. I am still in support of no nukes at all though.

Also, I think that since we have the first seven we should post the best three times and days to play this game at, for me....

Monday anytime from 6:00 to 11:00

Wednesday anytime from 5:00 to 11:00

Sunday anytime from 11:00am to 8:00 pm

Alright, anyone that sees this page (even if you haven't already posted) please give us your thoughts and if you want to play the times and days you can play, I am pretty sure that at least one person will have a non-compatable schedule.

[Curumbor Elendil]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 02-04-2001 09:37 AM</font>
Alright well, this is exactly the type of discussion I wanted for this thread. What side does everyone take?

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Well, people don't have to pick a 'side.' They can feel free to disagree with me on some points and agree on others.

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Curumbor's Camp: No facism, weaken democracy, leave SDI in the game, add more modern units.

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Actually, just a clarification: I like the idea of renaming 'Fundamentalism' to 'Fascism' (don't forget that extra 's' btw!); I just don't think the attributes should be changed. Also, I'd rather eliminate both nukes and SDI, but if nukes are to exist, I'd rather have SDI allowed than not.

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I was also thinking we could add in some new tech which would come with corresponding units. We could possibly put SDI in but make its tech requirement very far off. I am still in support of no nukes at all though.

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You mean 'no SDI at all'? I think new techs/units is a good idea - there are all kinds of things that could be done here and I am open to suggestions. One thing we're doing in the New Mil game is having an extra tech called 'Unified Field Theory' that is required for Fusion Power. Also, spaceship parts require 'later' techs in general. This delays the launching of a spaceship, which is good for realism considerations (it's 2001 and we're nowhere near a ship to Alpha Centauri), but also for the game (it doesn't basically end with Space Flight).

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Also, I think that since we have the first seven we should post the best three times and days to play this game at, for me....

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I can't do Sunday till after 1 PM (and an even later time is probably best), and I can't do Wednesday, Friday, or Saturday nights. Other than that, I'm open - even during the day most days.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[GNGSpam]

I prefer the idea of Nukes in a game. Yes it allows small countries to play on a more even playing field with large countries, its the entire concept of Nuclear warfare. Nations like Russia which have fallen darastically, or small players like India or Pakistan, can have a significant effect as a power solely because they have Nukes. I think as long as we get people who are intrested in maintaining fun for everyone...

I dont think we should change Fundamentalism, its strong enough as is. Capo apparently has no experince with fundy, because its obvious that due to the no unhappiness and the extra tax bonus from happy buildings, a fundy can easily jack his science rate up to 80% and have a reasonable science rate. Yes it still wont be as high as democracy, but itll be close enough considering Fundy has other offsetting benefits, such as 10 units supported, free storm troopers (new unit which will be between the Conscript and Marine in stats, so not half bad), and not having the hassle of dealing with happiness. All of those elvises in your cities can now be scientist.

I do think we should consider helping communism in a small way to make it more viable. I also do NOT think we should stop city bribing, tech stealing, etc. I think it should be done in moderation.

[Curumbor Elendil]

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<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by GNGSpam on 02-04-2001 03:24 PM</font>
I prefer the idea of Nukes in a game. Yes it allows small countries to play on a more even playing field with large countries, its the entire concept of Nuclear warfare. Nations like Russia which have fallen darastically, or small players like India or Pakistan, can have a significant effect as a power solely because they have Nukes. I think as long as we get people who are intrested in maintaining fun for everyone...

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Well, this is something we can vote on, & I'll go with the majority.

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I dont think we should change Fundamentalism, its strong enough as is. Capo apparently has no experince with fundy, because its obvious that due to the no unhappiness and the extra tax bonus from happy buildings, a fundy can easily jack his science rate up to 80% and have a reasonable science rate. Yes it still wont be as high as democracy, but itll be close enough considering Fundy has other offsetting benefits, such as 10 units supported, free storm troopers (new unit which will be between the Conscript and Marine in stats, so not half bad), and not having the hassle of dealing with happiness. All of those elvises in your cities can now be scientist.

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Also, doing WLTHPD under Fundamentalism gets you the +50% trade bonus you also get under Rep and Dem, so that also increases science.

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I do think we should consider helping communism in a small way to make it more viable. I also do NOT think we should stop city bribing, tech stealing, etc. I think it should be done in moderation.
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One way to improve Communism slightly is to make it support five units free instead of three.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

[Mr Dimbleby]

I'll vote for Capo's string of proposals.
I can play Tues - Friday, after 8pmEST.

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Thousands of monkeys are creating havoc in the corridors of power, barging into government offices, stealing food, threatening bureaucrats, and even ripping apart valuable documents.

You little scumbag! I've got your name! I've
got your ass! You will not laugh! You will not
cry! You will learn by the numbers. I will
teach you. Now get up! Get on your feet! You
had best un**** yourself or I will unscrew
your head and **** down your neck!

Dog spelled backwards is still man's best friend
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Mr Dimbleby (edited February 04, 2001).]</font>

[War4ever]

I can play anytime after 5pm PST prefer weeknight as i have a diplo game on sundays and i run long distances those days ..... plus my girlfriend will kill me if i take up all of our time off together with civ.

Commie is strong enough without any help as is fundy/facism.......

I like nukes If you piss me off i will drop em

However i really am peacefull

i will go with the majority... i think a trade vessel without happy probs isn't needed for rep/dem..... those govts are very powerfull and what fun is it if everyone goes early republic ???
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by War4ever (edited February 04, 2001).]</font>

[The Capo]

What I meant by putting SDI in a later tech slot was that we would make the tech so far into the future that the Nuclear age would have almost been destroyed (by diplomatic sanctions/agreements).

But other than that I am quite open, the only reason I want Facism instead of Fundamentalism is becuase I can roleplay a Facist better than a Fundamentalist. I don't make too many changes.

As far as new techs, I am up for it, if you have suggestions I would love to hear them.

Peace.

[SunTzu]

My best time is Wednesday 5-11CST which is 6-12EST
I have a Suas's Diplogame on mondays and play football on sundays.
Wednesday is best.

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http://www.civfanatics.com Staff


Bah! Can't use my sig