Manifesto of a determined "leader"....

[SunTzu]

Napoleon, your the biggest freakin lier. Yes you were there on time. And Capo sent you the files he already sent you the files! But you couldn't figure out how to put them in the correct directory, i don't see how someone can be so stupid. You had us waiting there for 2hours! Are you retarded? 2hours and you still couldn't get it right! If you would've told us that you couldn't do it at first, you would've saved us alot of time. Everyone thinks your an idiot, they're just not willing to say it. Capo wasn't the only cussing and pissed. Everyone was because you couldn't figure out how to move files that my little 7year old cousin can do.
If you can work a computer i'm surprised you could even start up civ2. You probably weren't trying to put in the files, you were probably ashamed because you couldn't find out how to run civ2!

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http://www.civfanatics.com Staff


Bah! Can't use my sig

[cavebear]

Capo - I will not respond to your message point-by-point. That path invites only endless debate. If you insist on it, and I have time, I can, but I don't think it will help at the moment.

I tried to give some advice, I tried to point out some areas where you might improve your orginizer skills, and I tried to give some support to Nap, whom (in my opinion) you have severely wronged.

The main point though, is that you need to strengthen some "organizer skills". You definately have some, but I think there are others required. It's not like these skills are ones that anyone is born with, they have to be learned and practiced (even in the face of adversity).

I understand your objections to my post. I will consider the failure to communicate them clearly to be my own failure to explain, not your failure to comprehend.

[Crustacian]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 01-27-2001 04:35 PM</font>

Nappy:
"I even ICQed the game to other players for their comment on it. I wanted other people to comment on the game because I felt that Capo had really roided up his starting position in Italy...3 grapes and a whale in his starting city and another grape and a whale for city #2 in Spain and a futher whale for #3 in southern Italy. No other civ had terrain even remotely close to that."


Capo:
"I did not make this map, this map was created based on the Earth and her actual resources, it was told to me by the creator that since southern Europe has grapes, so shall this Europe. I chose Rome prior to the creation of this map, if you want the map you can ask me for it, he has exaggerated the amount of grapes in my starting city Radius. Why he has done this? I do not know."


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by The Capo (edited January 27, 2001).]</font>
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There are three wines, and a whale 2 squares northwest of the Roman settler.

A wine and a whale can be had by the Zulu moving 1 square to the southwest.

India has a dynomite location 1 square away from a 4 special site. (gold, buffalo, oasis, pheasant on river if "mined" by a settler from the grassland)

Aztechs seem in a disadvantaged location.

But the thing that stands out to me about this map if it is supposed to represent actual resources:
"I did not make this map, this map was created based on the Earth and her actual resources, it was told to me by the creator that since southern Europe has grapes, so shall this Europe."

So "if it is in the world, so shall it be in this map"...

?Then where is the coal in eastern U.S, the gems and gold in South Africa, the oil in the middle east and Saudi, (there is certainly an abundance in the maps Australia with 7 oil there) and the oil in the North Sea? By the way, why is there wine in North Sweden?

The Columbia River and Fraisier River of western North America are not rightly represented.

But the map was a good map, and vegitaion terrain areas looked mostly realistic according to a map site I reviewed to compare.

There was a LOT of wine happening around Rome.

Justifying the Roman starting place and the original African starting place as coincidence...well maybe it was. But on this map I would not want to be Aztech's or the African's in their original spot without having a war strategy to compensate for close proximity neighbors with awesome locations.

African's as the Zulu tribe looks reasonable, and I can't see why this would not have been chosen in the first place.
But why not add the specials to the rest of the world in the same manner as you justify adding them to southern europe? Or the map creator, or whoever accepts responcibility for the starting areas of the players?

Gold and gems are just as valid in south africa as the wines in southern europe.

The original spot for the African's was not justifiable even if "softened" (i.e. relented) a bit because you have a personal interest in the culture of a tribe from that area. We are talking starting locations here. Altho if Nappy said he didn't care where, then in a way he left himself open to it.

So lets say I am in your game and say "yeah Africa is fine for me". You stick me in Tombouctou and I say "Hey whats up with this?" Then you say "hehe...just kidding, here ya go" <-----that makes more sense than "oh you are the ancient Mali's cuz I was impressed by their culture and thought it would be neat to stick you there and see how you do."

Or maybe I would be up to the challenge and just go for it. Aztechs also have a disadvantaged spot in your map compared to the others in general and maybe you should again relent and set them as a tribe in south america.

I was not in your game, but these things are of interest to me as far as starting locations go in a game. Also player attitudes interest me.


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The journey itself is the thing~Odysseus

[Alexander's Horse]

I can't be bothered reading this thread


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Chaos, panic and disorder - My work here is done.

[The Capo]

That's not what occured, but I can understand that in a world that is interested in the non-personal aspects such as tech and "rates" and all sorts of things like that primarily, people may consider what occured to be cheating or attempting to slight other people.

I asked everyone who they wanted to be. Sun said Chinese, Chris said Russians, Mika said Indians (Drake eventually took his spot), Adam said Aztecs, Joe said Americans. Originally the African was supposed to be Ethiopia. But when I asked Nap which tribe he wanted to be, he said he didn't care as long as it was in Africa. I discussed it with numerous other players, most said it doesn't matter, after a discussion with Drake we figured it would be cool to have a Mali in the game. So that's where I put him, after I told him about it he said he would rather be the Zulu, I had no reservations and promptly made the changes. Don't know where you got the "hehe just kidding" BS from though.

I didn't soften the terrain because I was relenting, I softened the terrain because I felt that it was not right for someone to start out in the middle of a desert, I wanted everyone to start on grassland, so I changed some spaces on a river (where Timbuktu was) to be his starting location as the Mali. Again, I had NO PROBLEMS moving him to Zimbabwe. And you say the original spot was not justifiable, yeah it was man, the Mali start where the Mali were. I am not going to put the Mali down in Mozambique because that would be unaccurate, and I am quite sure any respectable Mali or Mozambiquean would be quite disrespected if I had done something like that. All players were told at the beginning of the game, you choose your tribe they start in their actual location, here's the file look it over and decide.

Which by the way proves Nap is lying, becuase if he had not recieved the game until we played, how would he have known about the Mali's "bad" starting location?

Again, I don't know why anyone has to "accept responsability" for the map, he has none in this case. He made a map, I used it, I sent it to everyone beforehand and they had their chance to complain and I would have been more than happy to change the map as long as the request was reasonable.

"But on this map I would not want to be Aztech's or the African's in their original spot without having a war strategy to compensate for close proximity neighbors with awesome locations."

Thus is the essence of a Diplogame.

"Then where is the coal in eastern U.S, the gems and gold in South Africa, the oil in the middle east and Saudi, (there is certainly an abundance in the maps Australia with 7 oil there) and the oil in the North Sea? By the way, why is there wine in North Sweden?"

I didn't make the map, but the only thing I can think of is that the creator was doing his best job, and I think its unfair to use this particular factor against anyone involved because everyone had the chance to say something, and like I said, I would have been more than happy to make any changes requested.

By the way if someone wants to get an explaination of how the map looks its simple. To the left of Italy there is an island meant to represent Corsica and Sardinia, on this island there is a hill and thus a "Wine" resource. Above the Alps there is a hill that has a whine resources, to the west of the Alps there is a hill in southern France with a wine resource and in Spain there is a wine resource. That is what everyone is complaining about.

But the fact is, this was intended as a Diplogame, and things like that weren't what the group was thinking about (at least not most of us). The "bad" starting location of the Aztecs was compramised by their good geographic location:

They had a better shot at getting the Pacific coastline and west of the Miss river than the Yanks did. They could make a strong bid for the entire Gulf of Mexico, and had direct control of South America right from the start as the Americans would have to make a strong movement through central America, or build up a strong fleet. Therefore their starting location is justified. In a Diplogame things like that must be considered, if one fails to recognize hidden advantages in a Diplogame, one will be destroyed. If anyone has played a Diplogame "regular skill/regular resources" are not as much a factor as the strategical savy of the leader.

Even the worst Civ player could be a very effective Diplogamer, its all in the style, so while its important to have good resources, its even more important to have the skills to delegate your resources (however meager) into the best possible political situations. What I am, in essence, saying, mere resources are not the only indication of a good location.

The thing is, I personally do not think about things like resources and what has the better terrain before I start any Diplogame, I always think about the personality of the leader in the game. If one focuses on mere civ aspects, and plays in a duel-esque fasion, they will be quickly taken advantage of by the Diplogamer.

[aburtt]

Ming,
Please put an end to this. This forum has never been about flames and rants. I would like to comment on the things said here, but I will refrain. This forum is about playing and a community where civ fans can come to play and learn. Please end this. Thank you.
Adam

[The Capo]

Ming I urge you not to close this thread down for numerous reasons. Whether or not it was warranted, my "repute" is being called into question by numerous people, I believe I have a right to defend my position, especially in the face of outright lies and miscommunications on the part of Nap Bonaparte, and not oddly enough the very man who wishes to close down this thread Aburtt.

Furthermore, this thread adds more to the discussion of in game etiquette, what is wrong and what is right, and if such issues are ignored simply because they give some people a bad feeling in their stomachs, then that is not in the best interests of Apolyton and this particular forum.

The incident calls into question numerous issues during Multiplay, and I think if we just ignore it altogether then we are doing a disservice to the community....

The base word of ignorance, after all, is IGNORE.

Peace.

[Ming]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by The Capo on 01-28-2001 11:53 AM</font>
Ming I urge you not to close this thread down for numerous reasons.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Yeah, there are some good reasons not to close this threads down... But there is a BIGGER REASON to close it down... YOUR STINKING HOLIER THAN THOU ATTITUDE in combonation with YOU CONTINUING TO INSULT PEOPLE!

You want to have a discussion about the relative merits of a map, game, style of play... FINE!
But do it WITHOUT continuing your childish tirade against people.

So enough of this crap... start another thread if you are going to discuss the game... but if you do it just so you can rag on people some more, you can find some other forum to act like a brat on!

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net