Cavebear Diplo Game

[belinda9]

I have been cruising around trying to get into a diplo-game (gee, it gets kinda confusing on all the we-shoulds, but hey, I imagine determining initial parameters would be the hardest part)

y'all are getting up more than one game? I would like to be involved in one but
A) no way I can play on Sunday afternoons -- Sunday evenings after 7pm Central, maybe; so that looks like I can't make at least one of them

B) It looks like Ozzy and them are looking for more experienced players who can post a "resume" that I ain't got for their Ultimate game that bled over here from the other two topics where he's organizing

C)I can do Wednesday nights -- I think I saw that mentioned..

if y'all got anything I can fit in on this time-wise, put me down as an interested party. Seeing as how it would be my first diplogame I don't care what you come up with for starters -- I mean, I have definite ideas and all, but I'm kinda of a "screw it, let's just play the game" kind of a girl, so -- guess that means I'd be easy first time out.

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[Epik]

Still need a host? My cable modem and I can play on Sundays at 4 PM eastern.

Here is a descrption of map that I set up. I think that it would make for a balanced start and a good game.

I created the map by editing the Large World Map that came with my Civ 2 Gold CD. It is 75 x 120.

I now have a 6 Tribe Map which uses the following:

French - start in western Europe (38,32)
Russian - start in middle Asia (54,26)
Mongolians - start in NorthEast Asia (Northern China) (53,63)
Chinese - SouthEast Asia (Southern China) (63,60)
Babylonians - start in Northern India (53,63)
Egyptian - start in middle Africa (42,73)

I had to use Egyptian and Babylonians because the game uses tribe groups (colors).

I started each tribe on a river square. I added 2 rivers in the Mongolia (NE Asia area) to allow the river start.

I also added some forests to Africa, India and China, because I felt they were behind in productive squares. I created some "natural barriers" (mountains, hills or lakes) between each tribe. They are not large barriers, and I did this to balance the barriers already between other tribes ( like the Mediterian Sea, Red Sea and Himilayian Mountains).

I think that this map will give a balanced start. Since I have seen the map, I would be the last to choose my tribe. I will not know where special resources are, because those would be randomized at the start.

One interesting effect of this map is that it leaves the new world (North and South America) open, and the race to settle it would be fun.

[absurddoctor]

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that I also have a cable modem so I could host if necessary.

AD

[cavebear]

AD - Noted that you have cable... Good.

Epik - Not a bad map. If we decide to go with a real-world map, that could serve.

[cavebear]

Well, let's try to get some basic aggreements pinned down. The 2 main concerns seem to be the map and the rules.

1. Should the map be a real-world map or a created one (not known to any player (me included, of course))?

2. Should the rules be standard (with some agreements about bribing and city-trading) or hard-wired changes (like increased naval movement or MDL rules?

Let's get those settled before we look at other details.

[CapTVK]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by cavebear on 12-16-2000 01:40 PM</font>
Well, let's try to get some basic aggreements pinned down. The 2 main concerns seem to be the map and the rules.

1. Should the map be a real-world map or a created one (not known to any player (me included, of course))?

2. Should the rules be standard (with some agreements about bribing and city-trading) or hard-wired changes (like increased naval movement or MDL rules?

Let's get those settled before we look at other details.


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

1. Using a pseudo worldmap is a very good idea. The world will still have the general world shape but we could have surprises in store. Inland seas, new islands (or a continent?). We'll have a general idea of what to expect, but not exactly.

2.
I would go with the usual agreements and some general hardwired changes. We shouldn't change too much in the rules.txt. That's why I proposed +2 naval movement, essentially it means all players get Magellan's expedition!

[KenThur]

My votes:
1> TOTALLY unknown map, both in terms of creation & who creates it. Do not understand why anyone would want a perfect world that is known to ANYONE? How realistic is that? 4000 BC & the rulers of tribes know the layout of the entire planet?

2> Still believe the tried & tested MD League rules are an excellent set of A VERY FEW, much-needed adjustments. If a MDL memeber reads this, would U PLEASE give us a qiuck rundown of the rules improvements U guys have used w/ great success & how we can get them?



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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"

[Epik]

Here is a link to a partial screen shot of the map that I created. It should give you an idea of the layout.

http://home.columbus.rr.com/epikhome...6TribeMap.html

[Epik]

Let me express a few thoughts about this game...

Game style = Diplo = To me this means:

• Your skills as a Civ manager are stressed
• Negotiating is important
• Total conquest is unacceptable (alliances will be formed to gang up on overly aggresive tribes) because we want to keep all players in the game.
• Role playing and story telling is encouraged

Goal = Complete the game. Since only one player can win the game, we need to keep it interesting enough for all players to stay with it.

With these assumptions in mind, I think that it is important to have a balanced start. My game experience with random starts is that at least one player will end up wandering at the beginning (searching for a decent city location). This tribe will lag far behind one that can drop a city in the first few turns and will likely never be able to catch up. A second common occurance is that one tribe will be spawned on an island or so close to other tribes that it has no room to grow. They fall behind in the city count or have riot problems because they are so spread out. It says nothing about the player's skill as a Civ gamer, it is just bad luck.

In the same game there will be good luck tribes that are able to drop a city on the first turn and can expand easily. This is all that a decent Civ player needs to win the game. Establish a big lead and build on it by getting the key wonders. Now you may have several lucky tribes and get a decent game going, but then...
what happens is that the bad luck tribe eventually becomes frustrated and quits. Game Over!

Diplo is also a game where we can have fun telling stories. It helps to have these stories based on a common geographical reference. Like... "Our brave sailors have discovered Nova Scotia!" Rather than... "Our brave sailors have discovered a new land at cooridinates 20, 28".

Diplo is a game of negotiation, so it helps to have an idea where your neighbors are. Tech trading is common and benefits both sides. However, a random start can give an advantage to those that have the first contact. If the bad luck tribe is stuck on an island it may be a long time before he can find other tribes to trade with, and by then the other tribes may have already gotten the techs the bad luck tribe has to offer.

I have no problem with randomized resources and huts. The game seems to do a good job of spreading those out.

In my opinion this game should provide the opportunity to test our skill as Civ gamers, not our luck.

My vote is for:[list=1][*]Using a map that will give us balanced start (with random resources), and that looks like the world (or some part of it) so we have reference points for our stories.[*]Diety level (you should have to keep your tribe happy).[*]Restless Tribes (you should have to provide a decent defense of your cities).[*]Incresed sea movement is okay, but I would prefer to keep the unit rule changes to a minimum. No City bribes,or Caravan magic transport seems to be standard. [*]1x move and 1x prod seems to be standard in Diplo games.[/list=a]

Will I play (or demand a recount) if my preferences are not used? Probably, but if I turn out to be a bad luck tribe, then expect some whining...



<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Epik (edited December 17, 2000).]</font>

[absurddoctor]

Concerning city bribing ...

I do not think it should be ruled against completely. If we want to consider it a very bad act, we can deal with the problem in game, and "in character", instead of making a rule about it beforehand.

As far as the map goes, assuming we are still going to have enough players for two games,why not have one game random and one not?

AD

[SunTzu]

I'd really like to play a Diplo game cave bear i just sent you my ICQ number so talk to me when ever you get on ICQ peace!

[Nap Bonaparte]

Cavebear...maybe we can get 2 games going...I would be interested in playing also

[SuperSneak]

Map: I don't think a foreknowledge of a map is going to really affect gameplay. My suggestion is that we use the most interesting map possible, with preset starting positions. I have started on small islands before and am very averse to having to try to beg/plead/steal my way off an island again. I don't mind being "behind" everyone (in fact, I see my role in a Dip game as a support player to a more seasoned player I can learn from), but it is nice to have a good shot at the beginning.

Rules changes: I think tinkering too much hurts the game...but I will leave that to more experienced players to decide. The games I've played have had production X2, which seems to pick up the pace a bit, but it doesn't really matter to me.

I am confident that Cavebear, in his atypical Solomonesque fashion, will be great at sorting this out and should be deferred to by lesser beings such as ourselves.


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Bring it!

"How ridiculous and how strange, to be surprised by anything that happens in life." Marcus Aurelius (Meditations)
Chief Revealer of Personal Foibles

[Mercantile]

As an outsider looking in, and wanting in one of these games, i think that a world map of some sort , perhaps tweaked a bit should be used with fixed starting positions which could be tweaked as well so that not everyone is in europe

MDL rules i believe have a never expiring oracle, dips cost 50shields, there is the non combat trireme for trade in republic , i believe the pyramids expires at railroad or refrigeration. There might be some more. I have only played one or two games at this level.

Maybe there should be a cap on cities, like 40 each or something. If you expand quick enough you can be first to the plateau, and then use WLTKD to grow those cities before the others catch up in numbers. This may avoid the city max problem and prevent one person from having 14 cities and another 70. However that may seem unrealistic as well.

[cavebear]

I like the idea of a cap on the number of cities. That would seem to be a natural aspect of Diplo play anyway. The cap number could be discussed. I think it might be best to set a cap on the total number of cities in the whole game and divide it by the number of civs.

MDL rules would be good, but perhaps a simplified version of them. Too many would be hard on those of us not familiar with them at all. Maybe we could incorporate the best 5 or 10 of them? I thought I had them copied once, but I can't find that file now.

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