Cavebear Diplo Game

[cavebear]

Some thoughts:

Fair means "somewhat even", not the Procrustes idea of everyone chopped to fit the bed. Look up "procrustes" .

Waiting until after New Years is a good idea, as many potential players would find some temporary conflicts over the holidays. Jan 7 might be the best start date.

Details of the game can wait until we see who is interested. It can also wait until we see who jumps into the Ozzy game. There are plenty of likely players.

Perhaps the map should be known to all (like a world or Eurasian map). Perhaps civs should start with some cities. We should discuss that.

Perhaps there should be several designated subs to fill in honestly for any player and following that civ strategy...

Thoughts?

[The Capo]

Its about time I opened my mouth.

I have read all of the posts involved with all of the Diplogames, trying to become the Zen master of Diplogames, but to no real avail.

In the eyes of most of you I am a "rookie" at best, but I can tell you that I am one fun guy to play with in a Diplogame.

I have started many ill fated games in my past, and some of their fates were due to me personally. So that's a warning.

I would be quite interested in joining this game, but at the same time me and the Oz-man were dilligently trying to establish a diplogame that would start after New Year's, since we didn't want it to fall apart we tried to slowly build it to get loyal players, but I guess its who you know.

And since nobody knows the Capo around these parts, I think it would be a good idea if I got involved. If Ozzy is in I am in.

I think we should play on the map that Ozzy so dilligently worked on at all hours of the night putting his ocular capabilities at risk.

I think we should preestablish where our tribes start from, just so we don't get any strange starting points or starting too close or whatever.

I also want to extend an invite to Drake from UltraDip, he is the Mongolians and he is really a great player. Which I think makes how many? Six right there?

Cave
Kent
Berz
Ozzy
Capo
Drake
???????

And I bet some of you are gonna be pissed and say "Who the f*ck does Capo think he is?" but ask Ozzy and Drake, its my nature.




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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."

-Winston Churchill


"Ceterum censo Carthaginem esse delendam"
"Also I think that Carthage must be destroyed"

-Cato the Elder, Roman Statesmen


One Love.

[The Capo]

Well, without knowing Cap and Mine are in already so I am kinda stupid for suggeting Drake I guess.

I have heard of all of you guys, so I think we may have a solid core here as we stand.

My only problem is when do we play?

[The Capo]

Damn, sorry for making so many posts, but I just realized that Cave is in MD, I am in MD and Ozzy is in DC, crazyness!

[drake]

Getting into arguments about who the "best" players for a game is kinda silly. The most important thing is interest and reliability. I don't think anyone would argue with that. If people don't show, the game falls through. If a player is too casual, they usually don't play the role they need to, which makes the game less interesting. If a player can't spend 10 minutes to write some reflections on their previous session, this also reflects their level of dedication. My 2c.

If there enough players interested, there will just be two games.....no big deal.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by drake (edited December 12, 2000).]</font>

[KenThur]

I continue to be interested & will stick it out, regardless of powerchart ratings & / or position.
(it's about the TEAM that wins, not the individual).

What am NOT the least bit interested in, is a map that ANYBODY even remotely involved in the contest knows. Period, end of story.

Half the fun & challenge of this entire game is NOT knowing & having to find / explore / discover a new world & the other civ's that are in it.
I mean think about it... how realistic or historic is it to have all the rulers from pre-historic times, know the layout of the entire world?

IMS-HO

[absurddoctor]

Are there still any openings for this game? I would like to get involved. Or maybe I can just be signed up as a sub, since I have no previous experience with a diplo game and it will give me a chance to learn more about them and give you a chance to see that I would actually put effort into it.

AD

[cavebear]

KenThur - I've assumed that no player would know the map (unless everyone wanted to play a real map). The best solution would be for a pair of map-makers in different games (or an independent one) to create and trade maps for the other group's game. I can make maps fairly easily now, and I know there are others who enjoy doing that as well. The only question is to learn the general parameters that the other group wants.

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by absurddoctor on 12-13-2000 01:10 PM</font>
Are there still any openings for this game? I would like to get involved. Or maybe I can just be signed up as a sub, since I have no previous experience with a diplo game and it will give me a chance to learn more about them and give you a chance to see that I would actually put effort into it.

AD
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No player-selections have been made, and I am delighted to add your name to the list of interested parties. And since there are at least 2 games in planning, I doubt that there will be anyone left out. It will probably depend on the game settings that the groups select as to who will prefer to play in each.

[cavebear]

For the game I am planning (4 pm Sundays Eastern Time)I am thinking that we would not want to venture very far from standard rules. Mainly, that's because it is difficult for me to keep too many rule variations in my head. But also because, if we have to worry about some players committing havoc with Diplomat attacks or nuclear war, then (as a Diplo game) it is dead before we start.

So, I propose fairly standard settings: Emperor or diety level, large map, large land masses (or one single land mass), roving tribes (or villages only), temperate, and preset civ-starting positions (to keep a few unfortunate civs from starting on top of each other or in polar regions). Am I forgetting anything?

And we need to know who among the interested players can host with DSL or cable (and will remember to save every year). I have only dial-up service.

Oh, start-date. I assume that play on Christmas or New Year's Eves would cause problems, so I suggest Jan 7th.

[OzzyKP]

Hey Capo, give up your damn inferiority complex, we don't all think of you as a rookie. You're a better more established diplo player than most of the people in this thread.

But, i don't think you want to jump ship to this game quite yet, it doesn't seem to be the one we want. While it may seem like a ***** thing to do, i want to be able to carefully select the players in the game no matter how long it takes. Truly the elite diplo players, so we can have the best ever.

Personally i think the reason that past diplo games we've been in have failed is that we just take whoever comes along for the game. Alot of them aren't entirely sure what the concept of a diplo game are, and just show up (sometimes) and play normal multiplayer.

Also, i like the premade map, and would rather have that and the special rules tweaks we propose than the straight out random game here, so i suggest you and drake take your marbles back to the game that we started setting up long before this one.

Again Cave, i really apoligize if it seems that i'm trying to subvert your game, i don't want to do that and i wish you all the luck in the world. But it just gets kinda discouraging when you are talking about a game for several weeks, and then someone all of a sudden starts up another game to steal the thunder. I'll try not to post here anymore though, and just let you all do your thing, i guess this was mostly a post to Capo though.



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Ozzy - King of Metal
Ozzy - Hungarians in Eurodip I
Ozzy - Proud Sayen member
Ozzy - Prez of NYRA, http://nyra.ecg.net

[CapTVK]

Cavebear said that the best date for now would be jan 7th. I'm for that date, I wouldn't be available before that anyway, christmas, vactions, celebrations et al...

I don't really have any trouble with the sort of map. Although I would like to play on the worldmap, but a random map can be just as much fun.

But I would suggest some changes in the rules.txt however:
I've decided to playtest a +2 increase in movement for all naval vessels on the worldmap and it works quite well for the gamebalance. Naval vessels before far more important and it also helps out players who are completely isolated from the rest of the world.

Another suggestion is ditching SDI at the end of the game:
Why? well, the players who's usually ahead at this time can rushbuild SDI in his major cities at this point making nuclear weapons a bit useless. In return we could replace the ICBM with a nuclear bomber with a 10-range (5 movement/turn) and a short range nuclear missile (6 move/turn). This way you'll have to sneak up pretty close with a sub or carrier to get in a shot, it should help to keep players at their toes at this point.

Those are my suggestions at this stage, anything else?

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by OzzyKP on 12-14-2000 01:24 AM</font>

Again Cave, i really apoligize if it seems that i'm trying to subvert your game, i don't want to do that and i wish you all the luck in the world. But it just gets kinda discouraging when you are talking about a game for several weeks, and then someone all of a sudden starts up another game to steal the thunder. I'll try not to post here anymore though, and just let you all do your thing, i guess this was mostly a post to Capo though.


<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

No problem, Ozzy. I wasn't trying to rain on your parade, either. As I mentioned at the outset, I've seen so much discussion (and not neccesarily meaning about yours) about Diplo games getting set up and going, that I thought I would try and take some organizing action. Besides, I'm sure we have slightly different ideas in mind for a game that would attract different players. It is worth having different kinds of Diplo games just to learn what ideas work best.

[cavebear]

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by CapTVK on 12-14-2000 07:06 AM</font>

I don't really have any trouble with the sort of map. Although I would like to play on the worldmap, but a random map can be just as much fun.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I envision a map that is similar in continent structure and size to a world map, just with enough changes to allow for the fun of exploring uncertain territory and to eliminate the advantage of experience with the real map. At least one independent mapmaker has already contacted me in that regard.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
But I would suggest some changes in the rules.txt however:
I've decided to playtest a +2 increase in movement for all naval vessels on the worldmap and it works quite well for the gamebalance. Naval vessels before far more important and it also helps out players who are completely isolated from the rest of the world.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I agree that sea movement and land movement (via railroad) could be brought more into line. I've long thought that rail movement should have some limit on it. Maybe 20 tiles or something regardless of unit movement factors. After all a mechanized infantry shouldn't move any faster by rail than a tank.

However, is a Diplo game the place to test changes like that (sea and rail movement)?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
Another suggestion is ditching SDI at the end of the game:
Why? well, the players who's usually ahead at this time can rushbuild SDI in his major cities at this point making nuclear weapons a bit useless. In return we could replace the ICBM with a nuclear bomber with a 10-range (5 movement/turn) and a short range nuclear missile (6 move/turn). This way you'll have to sneak up pretty close with a sub or carrier to get in a shot, it should help to keep players at their toes at this point.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I have to admit that I really dislike nuclear warfare in Civ games. In a Diplo game, it is worse. One player can commit more mayhem than the rest of the Civs can make him pay for. I suggest eliminating launched nuclear missles outright or severely restricting their range. A simple change or range to 6 or 8 squares might be easier. That would allow for some nuclear use and lessen the value of SDI rush-buys.

How does everyone else feel about any changes at all? I forsee a swamp of suggested changes, and I'm not sure we could agree on very many. To me, that seems to be the sort of thing that prevents these games from starting. But there is plenty of time to discuss them.

[absurddoctor]

Personally I would prefer as few changes as possible. I like how the original game rules. So assuming that we do get two games going out of this, I will probably just choose the one with fewer changes

AD