Announcement

**Alexander's Horse** · September 29, 2000, 10:26

*Frank makes appointment with his therapist*

**Rasputin** · September 29, 2000, 18:08

Subbing during these long games is obviously a necessary evil due to "real life " committments.
However, I feel a rule must be implemented , whereby any sub must have contacted the rightful owner and been fully briefed by them on what the plan is and what they can do. This may make the role of sub less interesting as he has no total control over the role of his civ. But we have to remember that the rightful owner has put many hours into the game and also his allys have many hours put in.
I know from my own experience in a Diplo game with Frank, that a sub almost ruined the whole game by breaking every agreement I had reached with Frank. Fortuantly Frank and I were able to get some agreement afterwards on troop removal and land swaps.
I agree with Frank on this issue and beleive that the current Diplo game has been damaged by the actions of the sub in that one session.

**OzzyKP** · September 29, 2000, 19:01

Well i don't know all the details of this game, but i think that subs add a bit of unpredicability and realism to a game. In real life (which diplo games are supposed to be emulating) leaders change often throughout the history of a civilization. The United States of today is clearly not what the founding fathers envisioned, or even what more recent presidents like Lincoln or Roosevelt expected.

Having subs in the game is like having different leaders in the real world. It may be frustrating for the player who is playing to the end, but plans in the real world don't really stick around for thousands of years, a new administration takes over and mixes things up. Britian and France were once bitter enemies, fighting many wars, and recently have been allies. Things, change, i think that is a good thing.

Even when subs are unavailable and an AI takes over for a session, while damaging i don't think things should be necessarily given back. I certianly don't think that temporarily AI civ should be feasted upon by everyone, that isn't fair. But leaders change, policy changes, that is how things work.

Frank proposes a conspiracy where his allies where taken over by subs that were instructed to betray him. Whether this be true or not, this is clearly wrong. Subs should be required to keep up to date on the goings on in the forums, and from that decide the best course of action for the civ they are taking over. Following the direction of the previous leader isn't necessary. If i take over a civ in a game that is doing very poorly, i'm not going to continue the plans (or lack of them) that my predecessor had, i am going to do everything in my power to improve things. Players will have differing opinions of what "improvement" is, but i think that is part of the risk involved with changing leaders, both in the game and in real life.

Though ultimatly, if you are really concerned about loosing control of your civ then don't miss any sessions.

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Dear Mother
Dear Father
Every thought I d think you d disapprove
Curator
Dictator
Always censoring my every move
Children are seen but are not heard
Tear out everything inspired
- Metallica Dyers Eve

**OzzyKP** · September 29, 2000, 19:08

Also, if you are looking to get involved with a brand new diplo game that is taking place on a European map, please contact me via icq or post in the Eurodiplo game set up thread.

We need one more player, and no doubt several subs. The countries taken so far are England, Hungary, France, Germany, Russia, and Italy. Suggestions for the new player are Spain, Turkey, or something different.

The game starts this Sunday, and will be played every week on Sunday at 1pm EST.

If you have had experience with Diplo games please come and join this one, the map is Real Europe, and doesn't suffer from any of the failings of the map that came with the game.

I can't wait for it to start, it looks like it will be an excellent game.

**finbar** · September 29, 2000, 21:13

Frank isn't being entirely frank (if you'll pardon the expression) about his complaint. Having sat through many hours of King Chat in this game, I should put some context into place.

Frank had two grievances:

1. That Curembor didn't properly brief the sub before the session commenced. The details of Curembor's ICQ briefing of the sub are posted in the Diplo 5 thread. As has been pointed out on that thread, Frank was given every opportunity to brief the sub. But it's not even as simple as that. Amongst other things, Frank has accused Curembor of organising a friend to act as sub with the intention of furthering his own (Curembor's) cause. This is the level to which the hysteria has risen, indicating that clear thinking long ago went out the window.

This needs to be understood in the context of -

2. Frank lost his Democracy government as a result of another Civ's activities immediately before his own turn. In other words, he had no time to correct the problem before his turn started. Frank called this a game glitch or bug. It's not a game glitch or bug. The turn order is part and parcel of the game. Sometimes it works to your advantage, sometimes not. Frank also argued that because he didn't have the option to "repay the favour", because the turn order prevented it, therefore it was unfair, and another reason to replay the session. Sorry. The turn order is part and parcel of the game.

The replay question was put to a vote amongst the 5 players. The vote was 3-2 against replaying the session. At which point, Frank quit.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

**Rasputin** · September 29, 2000, 22:13

Well knowing the amount of Conspiracy around that involves "Get Frank" at all costs I can understand Franks paranoia. I have been involved personally in some of the most underhanded Negotiations about ways to "Get Frank" , but as Finny so well put sit, this is all part of the game. Negotiations and diplomacy amonsgt humans make this the best game.
But I disagree with comments that Subs should be allowed to change plans to suit themselves . This game doesnt simulate a leader of a country like a preisdnet i t reaaly simulates an almost god like controler, with ability to force governemtn changes at will.
I beleive people need to realise that civ is a long game and needs multiple sessions to complete, but real life will always take priority, to say its some ones fault for not atending a session is rediculous ( sometimes this is right but moslty not)
Without supporting or not suppoorting any one in this particular case, I firmly believe Subs must be agreed upon by all players before the session begins.. No agreement no play....

**Rasputin** · September 29, 2000, 22:17

and further to previous point, I can give good example of sub thinking he knew better than me. I had set my civ up in a particualr game to be fully supportive of my allies, I was not playing to win , but helping my allies win, but a sub came in without my approval with no contact to me, and changed all my city production, made different chooices, based on him trying to win, buyt as we was only a sub for one session he ruined everything for my alies...

If sub is permanent replacemnt for somem one then for sure make any change syou want but if the sub is just a temp measure to enable game to contniue for a session then abide by rightful owners whims please

**Berzerker** · October 1, 2000, 11:32

Frank's "ally" missed 2 weeks in a row (I missed a week early on and they let the ai play my civ, Frank spent that week and the next preparing to sneak attack me, lol), the last week without a word (apparently he told someone about missing the first week). He was also a sub himself, not the original player - that civ has been plagued with inconsistent owners who left without warning. I thought Frank finally agreed to have a sub, correct Frank?

Nevertheless, this "ally" (the missing player, not his sub) never told anyone he was actually going to do as either Frank or C Elendil had asked; of course this is understandable since a betrayal was in the works either way. But it would have helped matters, Frank, if your "ally" had announced after the vote that he was in fact your ally. I would have considered switching my vote on that basis alone (and I still will). But so far all I have to go on is your claim that he is in fact your ally. His vote to replay does not mean he is your ally, only that he agrees with some aspect of your complaint.

Even if East tells us the sub did the opposite of what he was going to do, I still have a problem replaying the game. We agreed on having the sub, at least 3 out of 4 agreed - and Frank, you could have just left the game for that night and we could not have gone forward if you really had objections. Also, if we are talking realism here, how likely would the civ ally with either of you guys? Both of you stabbed the Egyptian, and it was Frank who designed that betrayal essentially blackmailing Elendil into joining. If East will now tell us he was going to do your bidding, Frank, be your ally in that war, then I will vote to replay the game.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Well knowing the amount of Conspiracy around that involves "Get Frank" at all costs I can understand Franks paranoia
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Hmm... and Frank is such a sweet guy who never falsely accuses people of cheating either, how can anyone want to "Get Frank"? We did not "Get Frank", he attacked me, then Elendil - if there was a conspiracy, we would be attacking him...

**easthaven** · October 1, 2000, 23:06

Alright, its time to learn the truth behind this whole "conspiracy". Its time for me to put my 2 cents in.
People have been wanting to know whether I was CE's ally or Franks. The only reason I allied with frank in the first place was to spy for CE. Well the truth is I wasn't going to ally with Frank. Because he is a warmonger, he is too aggressive, and not very trustworthy and I knew in the end when he conquered india he would probably go after me next.
And I didn't know if I wanted to ally with Elendi either because he declared war on me when I made a small mistake and not even letting me explain myself. And after I had been his little spy for all this time spying on frank, telling him Franks plans, but I knew Elendi was more trustworthy and he wouldn't attack me cause he would rather win the space race instead of conquering the world like Frank, and then Elendi came to me with a deal. So what I was going to do when the war started was ally with Elendi. I even had a transport for my tanks and howitzers in Carthage ready to invade southern Europe.
And I was mad when CE said I was permanently subbed but I couldn't blame him, I was gone for 2 weeks and the second week without notice. And the reason why I voted for a replay was because i wanted to play the most important sessions in the game, not to have some sub play it for me.
Well there you go.
Oh and about that new diploV game Frank is creating, I never did wanted to join it.

**Rasputin** · October 2, 2000, 00:33

My post aboove was not meant to meant you were all trying to get Frank, But I do know his playing style makes lots of opposition and this tends to form alliances agianst him. "Getting Frank" doenst necessarily mean attacking him militarily , but it does entail makinbg saure he doesnt win... Frank brings this one himself due to his boasting and aggresive style of play, but that shis choice!!

Obviously from the posts here and the ones in Franks thread , some one is lieing about whether East was going to join Frank or not in new one.

Its a pity that this type of stuff happens, reall ife interfers with our ability to paly each session and the others are too impatient to wait another week for a game. This is the main reason I no longer play as often as I used to , as I was called many names for not being able to attedn every session. Subs were used and they totally ruined the balnce in a great game many times.

Subs are a necessary evil in civ MP but the rulkes of Sub etiquette need to be addressed prior to a session involving the sub

**Curumbor Elendil** · October 2, 2000, 10:01

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Rasputin on 09-29-2000 06:08 PM</font>
However, I feel a rule must be implemented , whereby any sub must have contacted the rightful owner and been fully briefed by them on what the plan is and what they can do.

<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

That would be nice, but unfortunately not always possible--in this case the original player just didn't show up, so we had to get someone just then. Also, we planned to make him a permanent sub, so that he really should have been given more leeway in his policy. Finally, what the sub did was literally to flip a coin to decide his strategy, and when the previous player came back to view his civ he noted that he had gained a great deal in the meantime. In theory, I agree with you Raz, but sometimes it isn't feasible.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

**Curumbor Elendil** · October 2, 2000, 10:11

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Rasputin on 09-29-2000 10:13 PM</font>
Without supporting or not suppoorting any one in this particular case, I firmly believe Subs must be agreed upon by all players before the session begins.. No agreement no play....
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

And in this case the sub was agreed to by everyone, including Frank. Both Frank and I were reluctant to have a sub, but the alternative was either to let the AI play Egypt (an alternative which I favored, but no one else did) or to quit altogether, making it three weeks without playing. So in the end Frank and I both agreed to get a sub, and we all cast about to find people who would play. Berz hit upon Moker, and we all said fine, but then it turned out Moker couldn't be permanent. So then I came upon Xkalliber, a guy whom I'd played a couple duels with recently, and he said he would do it permanently. So we all said fine.

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Curumbor Elendil
http://pantheon.yale.edu/~jps35/
ICQ 56126989

**Berzerker** · October 2, 2000, 13:10

Rasputin - <center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>Obviously from the posts here and the ones in Franks thread , some one is lieing about whether East was going to join Frank or not in new one.
<img src="/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Not lying, just mistaken - I wouldn't accuse anyone involved of lying, just making rash accusations, assumptions and statements in the heat of the moment.

Frank, after you and CE launched your sneak attacks on the Egyptian and myself. I left the game because of your constant accusations (which I still dont understand) that I was cheating. CE talked me into returning - when I did, my government was in anarchy for something like 4 turns. I kept playing though, I did not seek to ruin the game by leaving because of my losses. And I am still playing even though the game is basicly between you and CE and has been ever since the stab - although, who knows what evil lurks in the shadows of N Europe, the home of Finbar

**finbar** · October 2, 2000, 19:50

Who? Me? Leader of the Horny Vikings? Nah, we're having too good a time scoffing Elephant Beer and spit-roasting the odd Hairy Mammoth that wakes up out of its glacial snooze and stumbles our way.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by finbar (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>

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