Alliance Ethics

[OzzyKP]

This question came up in tonight's HOTW4 diplogame, but has universal MP application.

If you are allied with someone and you want to cancel that alliance, is it ethical for that person to refuse to accept the diplomacy screen and keep the alliance against your will?

[rah]

that's why in our games there are no formal alliances so all of them have to be true gentleman's agreements with both sides knowing it can be broken at a moments notice. The agreements are only as good as the players. But for the record, to me, it seems tacky to deny a diplomacy screen from an a person you have an agreement with.

[atawa]

Its a feature thats build into the game so players should be aware of this when making an allience.
There is an easy way around it though, just ask another civ to declare war on that civ.

[Ljube]

First, I didn't make the alliance with you.
I made it with winzity.

Second, I didn't think you would try to exploit the alliance mechanics. That's just too easy and unfair, especially in this type of game.

Third, nobody wanted to help me cancel the alliance.

[Rasputin]

more info needed please...

but in general i would say , especially in a dipl ogame, no diplomatic requests should be denied.

[deity]

Yeah, I've come around to this way of thinking too - especially for a diplo game. I thought that the Revolt thing would work but apparently not. Learn something new everyday.

Anyway, In this diplo which is focussed on negotiations (that could just as easily occur in icq where this restriction does not apply) I vote that FA negotiations be allowed to occur.

[Ljube]

For not helping me out when I needed it the most I place thee, deity at the top of my must kill list!

[atawa]

Originally posted by ljcvetko
First, I didn't make the alliance with you.
I made it with winzity.

No mate, you made it with the leader of the Tartars. And as in all gouverment succesions there will always be a shift in politics under a new goverment.

Second, I didn't think you would try to exploit the alliance mechanics. That's just too easy and unfair, especially in this type of game.

Exploiting the game mechanics, including this one, is all part of the game beyond newbie level. I heared nobody mentioning it was against the rules, being someone who usualy plays for points I took that as a 'yes its allowed'.

I asked for a vote on it myself but no vote was ever taken, another sign that there wasn't a majority for disallowing this loop in the game.

Finaly I contacted you and the alliance was dissolved, but had I not waited you would have taken 3 undefended city's.
I dont expect someone I'm allied with to declare war all of a sudden. If you do you'll be sure I will do everything in my power to make sure you dont get away with it.
Unless it is against the rules of this game witch it clearly wasn't.

Third, nobody wanted to help me cancel the alliance.

They could have easily done this but didn't. I think the ones who are now saying I was in the wrong are more to blame but me.

ljcvetko,nothing personal, just rollplaying the Tartars wanting to get back to their homeland on the Krim. King sub felt this was not even a fair compensation for the Serb settlement in the dessert witch clearly llies in our sphere of influence. When even that was denied the Tartar settlers decided instead to found on the closest river they found.

[atawa]

Originally posted by ljcvetko
For not helping me out when I needed it the most I place thee, deity at the top of my must kill list!

Thats the spirit

[Ljube]

Originally posted by atawa

No mate, you made it with the leader of the Tartars. And as in all gouverment succesions there will always be a shift in politics under a new goverment.

This shift in politics is going to cost the Tartars dearly. Unless they surrender Uppsala and Subotica to the Serbs, there is not going to be peace between us. I wonder if winzity is going to be pleased with the way you handled the foreign affairs in his absence.

Originally posted by atawa

Exploiting the game mechanics, including this one, is all part of the game beyond newbie level. I heared nobody mentioning it was against the rules, being someone who usualy plays for points I took that as a 'yes its allowed'.

I asked for a vote on it myself but no vote was ever taken, another sign that there wasn't a majority for disallowing this loop in the game.

The people didn't know what was going on. Some of them (deity and he is going to pay for it) simply enjoyed the spectacle. You see from the comments in this thread that you shouldn't have used the alliance to plant a city in the middle of my territory like that.

Originally posted by atawa

Finaly I contacted you and the alliance was dissolved, but had I not waited you would have taken 3 undefended city's.
I dont expect someone I'm allied with to declare war all of a sudden. If you do you'll be sure I will do everything in my power to make sure you dont get away with it.
Unless it is against the rules of this game witch it clearly wasn't.

I don't expect someone I'm allied with to break all agreements between us all of the sudden. Nevertheless, that happened precisely. Unfortunately, you are going to get away with it because winzity is going to take over again in the next session.

Originally posted by atawa

They could have easily done this but didn't. I think the ones who are now saying I was in the wrong are more to blame but me.

They simply didn't care for my problems.

Originally posted by atawa

ljcvetko,nothing personal, just rollplaying the Tartars wanting to get back to their homeland on the Krim. King sub felt this was not even a fair compensation for the Serb settlement in the dessert witch clearly llies in our sphere of influence. When even that was denied the Tartar settlers decided instead to found on the closest river they found.

Your actions have pushed Serbs into war with the Tartars until the bitter end. The desert city was arranged with former king of Tartars. It is very unusual for a country to cancel all treaties signed by previous rulers. Such countries can never be trusted again.
About the settlement on Krim, I warned you that my cities were already very close because I left much space to the Tartars for their expansion. Another city in that area would have denied all food to my other cities nearby. You ignored my pleas, which isn't something an ally would usually do, and headed right for the heart of Serbia. The mess you made cannot be described with words.

[OzzyKP]

Just so you know Mingy, I didn't intend for this to be an additional HOTW4 thread, I hoped all players would discuss this point as it is applicable to all games.

[OzzyKP]

and Ljube, if you are gonna go on a war rampage over this (and I strongly recommend otherwise both for tactical reasons and because thats just not fitting for the game) don't forget who was arguing your case the whole time.

[rah]

It would be hard to have a discussion of the ethics involved here without a discription of the situation that prompted the initial question.

It does show that agreements can be viewed differently, especially by subs, and that you have to be able to back up your agreements with might. I can remember making border agreeements only to see a player encroach farther than I intended but still technically behind the line (but using squares that my cities could reach) That has been known to make me rethink the agreement and resort to acts of agression. (which always seem to work best on surprise. )

It does seem that another diplo game is going to decided by the sword and not the pen. I won't be that surprised if that's what happens.

[Rasputin]

subway

subs are the biggest problem with diplo games, and the palyers really need to work this sort of thing out. jsut becuase certain players push through a session at al lcosts and insist on subs or even worse AI in control a few dipl ogames have gone down hill.

I think a revaluation of the whole process needs to be looked at

[rah]

The answer is, to not play unless all players are present. But having organized many many games over the years, I know the problems associated with that. Unfortunately it's why we usually end up playing one night stands.