Watch me Get Obliterated!

[Gravy Smoothie]

Hey everyone. I'm new to posting here, although I've pored over a fair amount of the GL stuff during my two major periods of playing Civ II (one about a year ago and the most recent, being right now.) Last year when I read the OCC and ICS stuff over I gave Deity a try or two and quickly got frustrated. This time, I'm determined, but I thought that it'd maybe be interesting to post logs here as I attempt my various attempts to beat the game Deity, 7 civs, random map, raging. Armed with plenty of new knowledge since yesterday (importance of trade, tech gifting, MPE, etc. etc.) I am ready to give this one a shot. (or two, or twenty)

Gravy Smoothie

[Scouse Gits]

Gravy Smoothie Good Luck and welcome to Apolyton!

-----------------------

SG(2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

I'm betting that if you read all the GL, and apply some of the key principles (DaveV's resource square usage guidelines, and trade 'til it hurts), you'll win on Deity on the first try.

[Scouse Gits]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man
(DaveV's resource square usage guidelines, and trade 'til it hurts)

And I thought those principles were mutually exclusive

-----------------

SG(2)

[Gravy Smoothie]

Well, the first game is donw, it went about as well as I had hoped. I failed to assimilate everything I had read, and the major benefits that I would have received became very apparent to me. At the bottom of the log I have a few comments, and a few questions.
BTW, thanks SG and STYOM for the warm welcome.

OK, here goes:

4000 BC Start Alphabet, Bronze. Hut SW = chariot.
3600 Wander for 8 turns and don't find a city site I like. Contemplate starting over, then settle for a non-shield grassland with whale. Cardiff Founded.
3300 CoL.
3250 Phalanx in Cardiff, begin Colossus.
3100 Kells Founded SW of Cardiff, whale, buffalo.
2850 CB. We are on a small, small island. Whale/fish site located.
2750 Phalanx in Kells, begin Settlers.
2350 Pottery. Switch Cardiff to HG. Barb trireme drops 1 archer on our shores, rest on opposite island.
2150 Kells builds settlers. **** -- whale/fish site not possible. Barbs land next to Cardiff, dispatched.
1800 Carmarthen founded, whale (no fish).
1650 Monarchy, switch to Monarchy (duh).
1450 Kells builds settlers, switch to temple.
1400 Phalanx at Carmarthen, switch to Settlers.
1250 Cardiff hits size 4, disorder. 1 Worker removed.
1150 Horseback Riding. Armagh founded (whale).
975 HANGING GARDENS built in Cardiff. Kells builds temple. Cardiff Begins Colossus, Kells begins settlers.
950 Carmarthen builds settlers, switch to horsemen.
925 Armagh Phalanx, switch to settlers.
850 Currency.
825 Carmarthen -- horsies, switch to Colossus.
750 Settlers in Kells, switch to trireme.
650 Armagh build settlers, switch to temple.
625 Masonry. Orders in Cardiff switch from Colossus to Pyramids. Run into Japanese, gift 100 gold, sign treaty, give 3 techs, alliance, trade Monarchy and Currency for Map Making and Warrior Code.
375 English nearly done with Pyramids...chariot fortified in Cardiff and Settler next to Cardiff both disbanded in town, Pyramids bought for 44 gold.
350 PYRAMIDS. Switch prod in Cardiff to phalanx.
325 Englihs build Colossus, switch Carmarthen to Lighthouse.
300 Trade. Orders in Carmarthen changed to MPE, orders in Kells to caravan.
225 Give Trade for Iron Working to Japs, pay 50 gold, give CoL.
200 Japs drop me a line: we're through alliance-wise.
75 Kells -- caravan, food.
25 Caravan arrives at Carmarthen, helps build. Orders in Kells changed to phalanx, in Armagh to trireme.
1 AD -- I AM STILL ALIVE. MARCO POLO'S EMBASSY built in Carmarthen. English -- gift Trade, trade Monarchy for Writing. Chinese -- Trade, Pottery, Monarchy and Map Making for Mysticism, Construction, Math and Astronomy. Gift Iron Working, peace. Vikings -- Writing and Trade for Poly, Wheel, peace, gift some, get maps. Spanish -- gift a few, get Engineering and maps, peace. Give the Mongols a bunch of techs, call Japanese and Vikings back, maps from all three. Call English back, trade for Seafaring and Literacy.
25 Switch research to Invention.
100 Caernarfon founded, building settlers.
180 Gift techs to Japanese.
340 Trade for Bridge Building.
380 Gifting various techs, demand tribute from Spanish, war.
480 Even though seafaring gives my triremes 3/4 chance to survive a turn offshore, my boat loaded with two caravans sinks to the bottom of the sea. I look around half-heartedly for things to break. javascript:smilie('')
mad
540 Invention. Switch Cardiff to Leo's, round up my caravans.
620 Leo's Built, nothing upgrades.
740 Tintagel Founded (fish).
760 Talk to Spanish, pay 100 gold, end war. Thankfully, they are the only other civ who has yet to discover Invention, so I trade it them for The Republic.
780 Wool arrives at London, getting me into a war with the English along the way.
980 Philosophy --> Mono, Kells switches from Oracle (which has already been built) to Mike's.
1000 War with Vikings.
1060 Caerphilly founded (whale).
1080 Gift, Republic, Philo, trade Mono for Gunpowder to Mongols.
1140 Kells builds Mike's, begin to produce Crusaders and triremes en masse.
1420 Two crusaders land at Japanese city, goad them into war, attack, lose both crusaders.
1440 Banking, start on Demo.
1460 Two more crusaders, more casualties.
1500 Two more, they die as well.

1530 I return to my computer after a 20-hour break from the game (school etc.) Read up on inca911's GL entry on Hints & Tips and SimpsonII's perfectionist strategy. Production orders in most cities changed to caravans.
1550 Barbs land next to Armagh. Miraculously my regular Musketeers hold against two Legions (phew).
1650 6 Caravans on their way, discover Democracy.
1660 Revolution to Democracy, jack lux to 80%...friggin triremes still count as wartime units and are making my Kells citizens unhappy. There should be WLT*D next turn everywhere else though. Wish I could trade for Navigation... and I lose another trireme at sea on a 1/4 chance.
1764 Talk to the English, end war by gifting Philosophy. Trade Mono and something else for Navigation (a bit late) and Magnetism.
1778 Pay 300 gold to Chinese, trade Demo for Industrialization, pay 440 gold for Steam Engine.
1782 Medicine.
1792 Communism cancels MPE...
1794 SoL built in Carmarthen.
1800 Pay Vikings 200 for end of war, peace treaty, trade Railroad for Communism, start UN.
1810 Sanitiation.
1822 Vikings build UN. I am lagging kinda far behind in science, which is at this point the strongest point of my empire. Plenty to change for next game.
1836 Vikings Build Adam Smith.
1840 Vikings and Japanese rub Tactics and Electricity in my face, respectively.
1852 Mongols offer me 500 gold and Railroad, as well as an alliance, to go to war with the Japanese. Sure, why not. I talk to them the same turn, trade Sanitation for Metallurgy, and they break the alliance.
1854 Pay 300 gold and give Leadership, end war with Japanese.
1862 Tactics.
1866 Spanish demand Leadership, I give, then gift 1 more and trade Communism for Electricity.
1868 Japanese breake cease-fire and waste two of my riflemen with destroyers.
1870 I go Fundamentalism, to try and raise some cash, build some army and do some damage.
1873 Japanese land, take Caerphilly. javascript:smilie('')
eek!
1877 Japanese take Tintagel, start butchering my partisans.
1887 I liberate Tintagel.
1889 I liberate Caerphilly and retire. Score: 232, Rating, 32%.

All in all, this was the best game I have ever played. This was the first time I managed to set up a significant number of trade routes (although many aren't mentioned in the log, I set up about 12 or 15, but not with the largest cities, or the ones furthest away). Some comments, then some questions:

1. I realize after this game the importance of streamlining tech. At 1 AD when I built MPE, I traded for maybe 10 techs, which put me well past my 19th (after which I remeber reading that many more beakers are reuired for subsequent techs). This will be changed next game.
2. Never send triremes offshore...

1. Curious about a few things with veteran units. First of all, do you build barracks in all of your cities? Some? None? And, with units who have odd A/D values (i.e. Crusaders), do those round up or down with veteran status? (is a Veteran Crusader an 8/2/2 unit or a 7/1/2 unit?)
2. Ships absolutely ravage my ports, is there anything I can do to prevent this?
3. I had a LOT of trouble playing an offensive game. Do you make any focus on capturing cities if you are planning to land on AC? Do most players on Deity play to land AC, or to take over the world?

I will read up on DaveV's resource usage, and give this one another stab pretty soon. Thanks again!

Gravy Smoothie

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Some thoughts...

There was no save file attached, so I couldn't tell if you built many cities beyond 5 or 6. Build more next time. Some people prefer the real perfectionist route, and some people prefer the IC (infinite city) route, but generally, more cities are better. If being on an island slowed you down... aim for Lighthouse, rather than Pyramids/Colossus. It seems like you had no problem building wonders...

Non shield grassland IS a good choice for founding a city, because the city square gives a free shield, anyway. It's something for nothing, and all else being equal, you should take that.

Try to map out a tech path. There's a thread somewhere which shows a 'first 20 techs' list... that was what I used for a long time. Set goals - usually Monarchy, then Trade for Caravans, then perhaps Mono for Mikes. In your case, the sailing techs would have been a high priority.

You had some unrest issues. In the very early going, building warriors rather than phalanxes will help solve this in Despo/Monarchy. 2 warriors cost the same as 1 phalanx, but are twice as good for martial law. And for defence, link your cities with roads and build horsemen to defend with.

Re: Your questions:

Barracks: I never build them. Sun Tzu is cheaper. Besides, I don't usually go for early conquest.

Ships harassing you? Build bigger ships. Plus, sinking enemy caravels/galleons loaded with bad guys is much easier than killing the bad guys on shore.

I try to make nice with everyone I meet in the early going. If someone is in your expansion path, though, it's important to get rid of them. If not, just expand somewhere else and bide your time

[Gravy Smoothie]

Sounds like solid advice, STYOM. I did read the post on the 20 starting techs from the GL, but didn't realize how important choosing you early techs wisely can be. And, just to give you an idea of what the game looks like, here's the 1888 save, 11 turns before i retired.

-- Gravy

[Bloody Monk]

Welcome Gravy to one of life's truely great experiences You are in for a lot of fun.

Coastal Fortresses will double defense -v- ship bombardment of your ports. But following STYOM, build bigger ships and don't let em near your cities.

Next game expand more. Don't stop building new cities and don't stop trading. There is a visible land mass just South of your continent that is unexplored and undeveloped..

You might want to trade off the shields for Pyramid for a science wonder or LH and capture the big pile of stone later in the game. Food is not a necessity in the early game where it can even be a happiness problem.

Adding again to STYOM's point about getting sea related science and wonders when you are on a small island, move quickly to Steam Engine and build Ironclads (if you have Lighthouse, they will be Vets). Then proceed to thin out the AI coastal cities. In the window before Magnetism kills LH, an invasion force of vet Clads and caravels loaded with defensive units to take the cities after the clads drop their flag is unstoppable.

Have fun.........

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Hmmmm

Well, looking at the save... if you want quick advice, build more cities. If you're going to play perfectionist, you'll need more than 15 trade routes - you'll want to be delivering a couple of Caravans per TURN, at least, to keep the science and cash flowing, if you're only going to have 6-7 cities. And you don't have a SSC, which is (probably) crucial to success in a perfectionist strategy.

If you reveal the map, you'll see that 3 or 4 of the AIs have more than a dozen cities... to put it simply, they can outproduce you. There's no need for that, especially with a large, empty land mass south of you. Additional cities with additional production can make up for a lot of minor errors.

With some additional expansion, and some goal setting, the next game should go much better. BTW, that island isn't all that small... you could have crammed a 2-3 more cities in there. A little overlap won't kill you... particularly when none of your cities are working all the squares in their respective radii. Minimize overlap in your key (SSC) cities, but the others can handle a few shared tiles.

[Straybow]

350 PYRAMIDS

Most of us old hands haven't built Pyramids for so long we can't remember when. Too many other WoWs of higher priority. Think of it this way: 5 granaries = cost of Pyramids, you have only 6 cities and do they really need granaries? Colossus (extra arrows) or Lighthouse (safe Triremes, extra movement for better ships) each gives you something you can't get any other way.

225 Give Trade for Iron Working to Japs, pay 50 gold, give CoL.
200 Japs drop me a line: we're through alliance-wise

Don't bother with alliances unless they're willing to pay you money Not only that but the Japs are among the least trustworthy of AIs—militarist expansionist traits. Pay them off, they stab you in the back.

Check out some succession game threads, lots of readily absorbable tips in them.

Have fun storming the castle!

[Scouse Gits]

Yeah - must raise my voice in agreement...

But first, Welcome Gravy! Please join the madhouse (I'm the other git - there are two of us - long story)

1) Warriors, not Phalanges
2) LH (or Col) not Pyramids
3) Don;t emulate the AI and tie up production in lots of cities with WoWs - You will normally have Trade in time for your second wonder, and if not use diplomats as a 'poor man's caravan' to transfer shields from one city to another - once you have trade NEVER put production into WoWs - it is not cost effective (caravan shields cost ~2g and WoW shields cost 4g) and it denies that city any flexibility (can't break off and churn out a heavy or a happy for example)
3 (is it?)) The AI cannot manage a navy to save its silicon - build a few powerful floating things and rule the waves
4) Build more Cities, noble leader!
5) Build more Caravans, noble leader!
6) Build more Crooks, noble leader!
7) Build more Clads, noble leader!

in fact if it begins with "C" we need more of them

Good game and again welcome, SG[1]

[Scouse Gits]

Shameless plug:

Seeing as it is now available you may as well use it:
The Gits' Hut and Special Finder can be found at http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...34#post1520034

SG[1]

[LDiCesare]

Most (all) of the comments seem very reasonable. I add my own ones:
Two warriors instead of one phalanx cost the same plus you can use one to explore a bit before he comes back to tell the angry mobs to shut up. You seem to have built phalanx then started a wonder right off, I'd have built warrior + settler + warrior (or warrior/warrior settler depending on how much of the map you know) before starting a Wow.

Pyramids should definitely have been topped with a bonfire to change them into a lighthouse. Two lost camels are too much. Lacking LH, you needed Navigation ASAP.

When you built HG, did you try for WLTKD in that city? With a few warriors, you can usually boost it under monarchy for a few turns without resorting to lux rates.

Barracks: Either barracks or SunTzu. Some people don't like SunTzu because Feudalism will remove the warrior slot and prevent incremental rush-buying of units. And barracks are cheap, and if you wnat to conquer early, then you only have elephants or crusaders, and no feudalism yet, so they are worth buying if you want to wage early warfare.

[DaveV]

Originally posted by Gravy Smoothie
1420 Two crusaders land at Japanese city, goad them into war, attack, lose both crusaders.
1440 Banking, start on Demo.
1460 Two more crusaders, more casualties.
1500 Two more, they die as well.

This is the way the AI attacks. If you're going to attack, bring more than enough units to do the job. You can pick up techs, cities, and gold by capturing AI cities.

1. Curious about a few things with veteran units. First of all, do you build barracks in all of your cities? Some? None? And, with units who have odd A/D values (i.e. Crusaders), do those round up or down with veteran status? (is a Veteran Crusader an 8/2/2 unit or a 7/1/2 unit?)

If I can't build Sun Tzu's, I'll build barracks in a few high-production cities, and strategic cities near the front line. All attack and defense factors are rounded to the nearest 1/8, so vet crusaders are 7.5/2/2. A vet fortified pikeman on a river defends at 10.125 against crusaders.

3. I had a LOT of trouble playing an offensive game. Do you make any focus on capturing cities if you are planning to land on AC? Do most players on Deity play to land AC, or to take over the world?

Conquest. Civ is a classic zero-sum game: taking enemy cities weakens their empire while strengthening your own. I find AC/trade games boring, but other people enjoy them. Different strokes, etc. A lot depends on map size: it can be incredibly tedious moving hundreds of units around a giga map.

[Old n Slow]

My two cents to echo and add with the others:

#1 Plan -- plan the tech path, plan the search (no actually just go forth and search), plan the growth.

#2 Grow -- more cities = more science AND more productive capability for everything else.

#3 Don't forget to spend a few $$ to rush buy things -- Rush buying camels helps the trade AND wonder building.

#4 Proportions -- (I'm an intermediate player so this advice might be a bit off) Early on, warriors do the civil unrest as well as any military unit, search over rough terrain as well as any early unit and are CHEAP if lost or other bad things happen. So early on, build some warriors instead of phalanxes or horses (maybe keep one or two mounted units near the cities to knock off the barb leaders.) Otherwise build settlers (who fould cities and sometimes build roads). Later build dips for search, dips to buy (hopefully future NON units) barbs and more settlers. I'd say skip the barracks until after gunpowder; if you don't build/get Sun Tsu, then about 3-4 barracks should be more than enough for serious defense. After trade, about 70-90% of the units build should be non-combat units -- build, build, build.

#5 Avoid early war -- if you're a builder (see my bias in #4 above) then when war comes (and no doubt it WILL come) you'll be able to fight with better units -- always the prefered way to go.