Why do I struggle so much with "Republic"??!

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 04-27-2001 08:11 PM Yes, Republic is my favorite government in Civ2. With Women's Suffrage, there is NO penalty for military units being away from their cities, and it simultaneously gives one the money, science, and, with factories, warmaking capacity to move in any direction necessary. Salutations, Exile

Errr... Not exactly. each unit away from home AFTER THE FIRST still generates unhappiness by 2 per unit. women's suffrage reduces that to 1 per unit, but you still get unhappiness. but you can have 1 unit from each city out on the lines without any unhappiness.
another nice thing about rep is a city can be in civil disorder for more than a turn without your government falling. giuves a bit of leverage...

[Scouse Gits]

Another note on trade - there are quite a few research labs trying to get a handle on exactly what influences the gold/science bonus and the on-going trade bonus, but it is generally agreed that demand has no influence on the size of the on-going trade bonus from a trade route. This means that in terms of the long-term benefits of trading it is safe to ignore your trade advisor completely - that is not to say that an occassional one off bonus of 4 to 500 gold/beakers are not very gratefully recieved, but in the early game (in the absence of ship chains and railroad connections which allow instantaneous delivery of commodities) they should IMO be considered as serendipitous not something actively sought (although I make an exception for a repeating Hides route!)

[Rufus T. Firefly]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-30-2001 06:54 AM it is generally agreed that demand has no influence on the size of the on-going trade bonus from a trade route. This means that in terms of the long-term benefits of trading it is safe to ignore your trade advisor completely

Omigod! How did I miss this bit of news? Boy, that's Apolyton for you: you log in on a Monday afternoon for a bit of distraction, and the next thing you know you've got a whole new way to play! Thanks, SG. A quick off-topic question: do other factors -- like whether the route is internal or external, or whether it's overseas -- affect ongoing trade income? Or do those just affect the size of the initial trade bonus as well?

------------------
Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

[Exile]

FB, you and I must be playing different games, and I have noticed this before now. Does the effect of Women's Suffrage change according to what level one plays at? It seems that I have seen others make the same claim you have made concerning this government and this wonder. There is a conundrum here.

All I know is that, when in Republic, w/the WS wonder, I can field as many military units as I can construct, anywhere on the map, and they do not make anyone unhappy anywhere. In Democracy, the 2 red shields are, w/WS wonder, reduced to 1 red shield if a unit is outside its home city and not in a fortress at least 3 tiles away from that home city. With Republic and WS, unhappiness due to distant units is non-existent.

Now, my copy of civ2 is an MGE. Does the rules.txt vary from version to version? What am I missing here? This is a mystery that I sure would like to see explained, FB. Any idea where we are crossing wires? If, in some versions of civ2, the WS wonder performs as you say it does, then it would sure explain why a lot of people hold the Republic in low regard.

Curiously,
Exile

[Ilkuul]

Wow, I'm now OVERLOADED with information!! Have to print out and start processing all this. I really appreciate all the helpful responses from you guys. My head is spinning with ideas, and I have to try them out and see what works for ME... Especially good news is that I can safely ignore my trade advisor! Think I'll sack him - he's caused me enough headaches already! I appreciate the suggested research paths, too, Scouse, Rufus & Trader - that gives me a good idea of what the necessary prelims are.

[----->>>> Zzzzzzzzzip! Off to try it out...]

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 04-30-2001 12:11 PM Hey War ... don't understand your comments above? I made it clear from the top of the post that you go for HG + Mike's for early Republic. If you do build the Colossus, you house it in the same city as the HG. -------- SG(2)

Yes Scouse i saw that.....

well i was referring to your comment about a factory and the city generating only one shield in the succession game.
Here is a classic example of a improvement that is not paying for itself which is one of the biggest blunders new civvers make

[Scouse Gits]

Hey War ... don't understand your comments above?

I made it clear from the top of the post that you go for HG + Mike's for early Republic. If you do build the Colossus, you house it in the same city as the HG.

--------

SG(2)

[East Street Trader]

Republic is the hardest gov.t I think.

In my current game I got Monarchy from a hut before I founded (first and only time that's happened to me) and I went Writing, Mysticism, Literacy, Republic. So I was a republic before 2000 BC.

I tried to manage with just the NONE units I picked up from huts. So quite a few cities have had no defender for lengthy periods. That leads to plenty of scares.

You have to build a Temple in each city as a priority but after that it is lots of caravans.

I always build a trireme, explorer and diplo and send them off to explore the world and tip as many huts as they find. Otherwise the only units I've built are ships to make an effective ship chain (one per coastal city) and dips (for protection).

The explorers gets plenty of opportunities to bribe barbs and stray, cheap A1 units so it pays to have a second ship which comes along behind them and ferries these NONE units back to your cities and their forts.

Once you have a goodly array of foreign routes in place it's time to think of growing the cities. Turn research down and taxes up. Rush marketplaces and harbours. When your core cities have those improvements, turn luxuries up for a few turns and grow the core cities to size 8.

Don't be stingy with your elvii. Try to have one more elvis in each city than the minimum needed to celebrate. That guarantees the city will stay celebrating after the new citizen gets into place. Now when you do the rounds you will be able to make sure the citizens are working squares which keep the celebration rolling. If you don't leave the cushion of the extra elvis, oft enough the A1 will place the new citizen somewhere where he or she does not produce enough arrows and you will get the message that the celebration has been cancelled. OK, you can get the city back celebrating once you re-assign the worker - but meanwhile the cancelation has bitten and it takes one full turn for the celebration to be effective again (so growth is intermittent).

When you near the end of a city's potential for celebrating you can't employ this method. You can predict, however, where the A1 will place the extra worker (it prefers food). That may allow you to manage the situation. If there is a food special which also generates arrows (fish say) then try to leave that one free (while maintaining one extra wheatsheaf required). The additional citizen will then be placed on that square and the arrow surplus will be sustained

Once you can see that several cities cannot continue to celebrate, turn luxuries back down. Don't carry on so as to generate the maximum possible nunber of extra citizens. You want a good few extra citizens each turn to justify all the waste which turning luxuries up causes. Just one or two extra citizens is not worth it.

The power graph (substantially) measures population so you will probably move up at this time. Consider giving away some tech before embarking on the WLTCDs. If you expect to be Supreme give most to the purple civ. Try to fulfil your diplomatic needs (maps, alliances, etc) during this diplomatic round because the A1 will get more jealous as you grow.

Another growth cycle may be triggered when you reach Construction, moving core cities up from 8 to 12 and bringing laggards from previous rounds and newly formed cities along too. If you have Banking this is the time to rush some banks (an expensive business).

I see that other posters manage to be cash rich with this gov.t. I don't manage that and pretty much rely on income from trade bonuses and gifts from allies to keep my head above water.

I know when I'm managing it well and when not. If I'm going good I'm using caravans to establish routes. If badly, they're getting sucked into endless Wonder building.

But, really, it is no more than a stepping stone to Democracy.

[Scouse Gits]

Ah - thanks War - I too was somewhat confused by your comment.
Read my sig!! I assure you it was not our factory!

------------------
Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library has been built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

[War4ever]

LOL@ Scouse Gits (1) &(2)...... i doubt very much it would have been your mistake.........i hope you sold it for cash on your turn and btw NICE sig!

Are those games fun? I would have time for something like that unlike a continuing dig game Perhaps when a new one starts you will give me a favourable endorsement and then i too can plunge into unchartered waters

[Father Beast]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 04-30-2001 01:43 PM FB, you and I must be playing different games, and I have noticed this before now. Does the effect of Women's Suffrage change according to what level one plays at? It seems that I have seen others make the same claim you have made concerning this government and this wonder. There is a conundrum here. All I know is that, when in Republic, w/the WS wonder, I can field as many military units as I can construct, anywhere on the map, and they do not make anyone unhappy anywhere. In Democracy, the 2 red shields are, w/WS wonder, reduced to 1 red shield if a unit is outside its home city and not in a fortress at least 3 tiles away from that home city. With Republic and WS, unhappiness due to distant units is non-existent. Now, my copy of civ2 is an MGE. Does the rules.txt vary from version to version? What am I missing here? This is a mystery that I sure would like to see explained, FB. Any idea where we are crossing wires? If, in some versions of civ2, the WS wonder performs as you say it does, then it would sure explain why a lot of people hold the Republic in low regard. Curiously, Exile

Sorry, exile. I went back and actually tried it out, and you're right. only 1 citizen unhappy, and that disappears with Empress' Suffrage. A republic with empress is like having a license to kill...

[Exile]

FB,
Yeah, Republic and WS is a killer combination and it allows you to make war with a capital W, against the AI. But the problem with Rep as I see it, is that in MP, you are always vulnerable to the bribing business. I've played a few mp games recently, and my experiences haven't been good. Honestly, the immense power of the diplomat in mp has convinced me that;

IN MULTI-Play;

1.) The diplomat is far too powerful and unbalances the game.

2.) The diplomats and spies are ahistorical, unrealistic, and innacurate;
centuries worth of buildings and construction can just disappear in a
single turn if attacked by a covey of diplomats. Why build
improvements? It simply isn't cost effective.

3.) Why build anything but diplomats? They can bribe units and
cities, destroy improvements, steal techs, and drop city populations.
AND they are one of the cheapest units in the game to produce,
they cost NO shield upkeep, and will not make anyone unhappy if they
are far away from the city where they were produced. Additionally,
they can damage military units. And if they are spies instead of merely
diplomats, they can do all of these things and come back for more!

4.) Why use any other government except Democracy? It can put a brake on some of the power of enemy diplomats and will give a player the cash to
do the bribing. No need to wage war or conduct battles, simply buy your way to victory!

5.) The spies and diplomats change the entire nature of the game. It's not
an exaggeration to say that it becomes a very different game if one
uses the diplomats and spies.

6.) Sadly, it's not a game that I want to play. Call me perverse,
but I actually enjoy constructing improvements, building armies, and
fighting battles and wars.

7.) Conclusion; I'll stick with scenarios, apparently, but anyone who
wants to play w/limited diplomats should contact me and we'll play.

Rant-for-the-day,
Exile
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).]

[War4ever]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 05-05-2001 10:04 PM FB, Yeah, Republic and WS is a killer combination and it allows you to make war with a capital W, against the AI. But the problem with Rep as I see it, is that in MP, you are always vulnerable to the bribing business. I've played a few mp games recently, and my experiences haven't been good. Honestly, the immense power of the diplomat in mp has convinced me that; IN MULTI-Play; 1.) The diplomat is far too powerful and unbalances the game. 2.) The diplomats and spies are ahistorical, unrealistic, and innacurate; centuries worth of buildings and construction can just disappear in a single turn if attacked by a covey of diplomats. Why build improvements? It simply isn't cost effective. 3.) Why build anything but diplomats? They can bribe units and cities, destroy improvements, steal techs, and drop city populations. AND they are one of the cheapest units in the game to produce, they cost NO shield upkeep, and will not make anyone unhappy if they are far away from the city where they were produced. Additionally, they can damage military units. And if they are spies instead of merely diplomats, they can do all of these things and come back for more! 4.) Why use any other government except Democracy? It can put a brake on some of the power of enemy diplomats and will give a player the cash to do the bribing. No need to wage war or conduct battles, simply buy your way to victory! 5.) The spies and diplomats change the entire nature of the game. It's not an exaggeration to say that it becomes a very different game if one uses the diplomats and spies. 6.) Sadly, it's not a game that I want to play. Call me perverse, but I actually enjoy constructing improvements, building armies, and fighting battles and wars. 7.) Conclusion; I'll stick with scenarios, apparently, but anyone who wants to play w/limited diplomats should contact me and we'll play. Rant-for-the-day, Exile [This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Exile (edited May 05, 2001).]

most here play without city bribe
If you only build dips you will be crushed and besides..... someone will go fundy in the mp game , someone will be commie and others democratic.

buildings are constructed mid game when the wonder race is over

you are correct about dips..... the bribe cost of cities is ludicrous.... and by 3200 bc you should stack your units in a small map