Watch me Get Obliterated!

[-Jrabbit]

1. Always run to Monarchy ASAP 9which I presume you did).
2. Get Trade early. Build camels in preference to most other stuff. I learned my biggest problem was a tendency to build early infrastructure that wasn't really needed.
3. Too many ancient WoWs. Pick one or two (typically HG or Sun Tsu and Lighthouse for many here) and get on with your other goals. Other than (maybe) my first WoW, I never tie up a city for many turns of build. It's far better to use those turns for camels. When the WoW you wnat comes available, just activate those camels and build in one turn.
4. Make a definite decision whether you're going to war or to the stars. It greatly affects the wisdom of your tech path and build choices.
5. Do everything you can to speed your early builds -- it's like compound interest. Every turn you're collecting trade bonuses, Marketplace money, or whatever, is pure profit. In short, learn to rushbuild incrementally, keeping only enough GP on hand to weather an emergency.
6. WLTxD brings Explosive Growth in Republic and Democracy. This = many more worker squares = much more production, science, etc. Learn how to take advantage of this and you'll see why we all scoff at the Pyramids.

I'm pretty mouthy for a non-expert. Just hang out here (and maybe join a succession Game in the civ2 General forum) and you'll learn a ton, fast.

Good Gravy is aways welcome here!!

[Gravy Smoothie]

::reads::
::brain expands::

Gravy

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit

I'm pretty mouthy for a non-expert.

Me too.

A lot of wonders only make sense in certain situations. For example, I think you built Marco Polo too late. I'm also not a Pyramids fan... especially with so few cities for the free Granary benefit.

If going for AC - build HG, Colossus, MPE in the early game.

If going for conquest - build HG, Lighthouse, perhaps MPE and Sun Tzu...

If you're going to get Marco Polo, get it early and then trade techs wisely with it. And gift lots of techs to the AI's so they'll trade maps with you. That can save a lot of exploring (and lost triremes), and avoid nasty surprises (like the Japanese next to you).

Building HG... make sure the city with the Gardens in it is in a position to celebrate in Monarchy. That's a huge benefit.

Colossus - if built in the city with HG, can make for huge trade bonuses. Send lots of caravans from this city. If you're trying to win a AC-trade-perfectionist style game, this is a good strategy (build Newton and Copernicus and Shakespeare here, too - the Super Science city).

If you want to win by conquest... build lots more cities, Lighthouse, Sun Tzu, and avoid Colossus. Great Wall is of no use, because the AI will probably be on the defensive throughout a conquest-oriented game.

[Gravy Smoothie]

Originally posted by DaveV



If I can't build Sun Tzu's, I'll build barracks in a few high-production cities, and strategic cities near the front line. All attack and defense factors are rounded to the nearest 1/8, so vet crusaders are 7.5/2/2. A vet fortified pikeman on a river defends at 10.125 against crusaders.

Do you mean 7.5/1.5/2?
I figured it was just a typo, considering your math skills are no doubt considerable (look! a .125! )


Gravy

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Gravy Smoothie 1. ... And, with units who have odd A/D values (i.e. Crusaders), do those round up or down with veteran status? (is a Veteran Crusader an 8/2/2 unit or a 7/1/2 unit?)

Gravy Smoothie

I believe it is more complicated than a straight choice between rounding up or down (ie between an 8/2/2 and a 7/1/2 veteran crusader). The program adds up all the bonuses that operate and then applies them, rounding down. For attack (where there are normally no other bonuses) you add 50% rounded down so a vet crusader attacks at 7. For defence what happens depends on the other bonuses. For a vet crusader on plains the program rounds down to make it defend at 1. But in a forest there are 2 50% bonuses (total 100%) so it defends at 2 - ie on defence you benefit from the 50% veteran bonus if another 50% bonus operates - eg being fortified or in a forest. The Great Library has a more detailed explanation of the bonuses.

rjmatsleepers

[Gravy Smoothie]

3 more failures, and a good game in progress

Well here's three more logs...the first game I spawned on a medium island mostly covered in swamps and forests...I ended up retiring early because I had still a better idea of how I wanted to start my game the next time. The next two games, Barbs and the Chinese wiped me out early, respectively. This gave me a new respect for city walls but I have a game going right now, it's about 1670 AD, I've got 14 cities, a half-decent SSC (although I was beaten to Copern's, I've got Colossus, Isaac Newton's, and a Lib and University in a City with two spice and 4 or 5 water tiles). On top of that, I've got Leo's, so now it's a rush to find people and deliver them caravans (just found the Mongols, dropeed off a few shipments). THat log will be up as son as I win or lose that game.

Here are the three losers, as always comments welcome:

4000 BC No start techs. Much forest.
3850 Hut = archers.
3750 Hut = archers.
3550 Hut = Horseback.
3500 Gravy Train founded. (pheasant, buffalo)
3350 Hut = Warrior Code.
3150 Carmarthen founded. (whale)
3100 Hut = Chariot.
2900 Hut = 50g.
2650 Ceremonial Burial.
2550 Hut = The Wheel.
2300 Hut = Archers, disbanded.
2000 Armagh founded. (whale)
1550 Alphabet.
1400 Caernarfon founded. (pheasant, fish)
1200 Barbs land, die. Capture leader.
925 Bronze Working.
775 Tintagel founded.
550 Code of Laws.
450 Someone builds Pyramids.
425 Indians build Colossus. Caerphilly (spice) founded, Cork founded.
300 Aztecs build Hanging Gardens.
225 Monarchy, Rhymney founded (peat, pheasant.)
200 Vikings build Lighthouse.
25 Map Making.
1 AD Slow game, but I am not so worried. I'm no doubt behind technologically, but let's see what I can do to catch up.
80 Swamp cleared, Iona founded (pheasant, peat, spice, whale).
120 Currency, I'll be able to build MPE in one turn with Trade...
240 Illauntanig founded. Hut = NONE settlers.
260 TRADE.
280 Marco Polo's built in Armagh. Acquire Writing, Masonry, Mysticism from Babylonians by trades (didn't give 'em Monarchy though). Gift 50 Gold to Aztecs, trade Writing for Construction, gift Trade for maps. Gift The Wheel to Vikings, trade Warrior Code for Literacy, gift Trade for maps. Got 16 techs now, 15 of which are on the paths to Monarchy, Mono or Demo.
300 Check requirements for Navigation, then talk to Indians, gift Literacy, trade Monarchy for Math.
440 Trade Mysticism for Seafaring to Vikings, sign alliance, request gift, nothing.
500 Talk to Indians, gift a tech or two, trade for Philosophy (before I discover it and waste the advance, instead of maybe getting Navigation next turn) and for Poly.
520 Trade Philo for Pottery to Vikings, they cancel alliance.
620 Gift to Babylonians, then trade for Astronomy.
700 Land two caravans, Aztecs declare war.
720 Retire this game, been reading up on succession games, came to some obvious realizations: it's much easier to colonize other continents than I realized, and by caravans you mean A FRIGGIN LOT OF CARAVANS


I'll post 2 and 3 in the next message.

Gravy

[Gravy Smoothie]

Stupid Chinese:

4000 BC We've got bronze working and CB. Hut yields NONE chariot,
3950 Capital founded (fish), begins warriors. Wise men start work on developing the most reknowned song ever written (A, B, C, D...etc)
3900 N of Capital founded (pheasant), begins warriors.
3700 Song completed, begin researching Code of Laws.
3550 Hut East of Capital yields E of Capital (fish), begins warriors. Nof Capital builds phalanx (whoops) and switches to settlers.
3400 Code of Laws discovered, wise men begin working on a way for newly invented "criminals" to post bail.
3350 Explorationeast brings us into contact with a Mongol horseman, trade CoL for Map Making, sign (temporary) peace treaty.
3300 Hut reveals barb horseman, Mongol horseman kills it (thanks!)
3200 Hut = masonry.
3000 Our chariot finds Karakorum, attacks, kills phalanx. Warrior dispatches our chariot.
2850 N of Cap builds settlers.
2650 Wise men discover Currency, (still can't research MONARCHY! or TRADE!) begin Writing. Watch barbs hassle Mongols.
2600 NE of Capital founded.
2500 Stupid me...barbs take NE of Capital.
2450 I destroy NE of Capital, found SE of Capital.
1850 NE of Capital re-founded, Chinese destroy Mongols.
1750 Writing, start researching Monarchy.
1600 Chinese threaten if we don't gift writing, we refuse, war
1550 Chinese Take E of Capital, Writing...
over the next 600 years, the Chinese overrun me with chariots.
GRAVY SMOOTHIE WILL RETURN!
*sigh*


Stupid Barbs:

4000 BC No starting techs. Take 4 founded (fish).
3950 Wise men begin studying CB.
3700 Dicover CB, begin researching Alphabet.
3650 Happyville founded NE of capital (2x spice).
3350 Alphabet written, begin studying Bronze Working.
2900 Bronze Working, start on CoL.
2500 Take 4 builds settlers.
2300 CoL, start Monarchy.
2150 Barbs drop a pair of archers next to Take 4.
2100 Archer kills one warrior, second warrior activated, kills archer.
2050 Settlers disbanded.
1600 Happyville builds Settlers.
1550 Monarchy, start Currency.
975 Currency, start Trade. Barbs land near Take 4.
950 Barbs get raped by phalanx.
900 Doin' Alright founded S of capital.
800 Temples rushbought in Take 4, Happyville.
700 Trade discovered, Take 4 switched to Caravan, Happyville building Colossus.
675 Optimism founded.
600 I run into Babylonians, gift Trade. Rogue archer attacks Doin' Alright, kills warrior, I activate 2nd warrior, attack, that one gets killed too.
575 Barbs take Doin' Alright.
525 Phalanx attacks Doin' Alright, dies.
500 For Christ's sake. Barbs kill my caravan. Retire...

[Scouse Gits]

Very hard to make constructive comments from these logs - at first glance you are suffering from a lack of offensive defence - you need a scattering of horsies to take out the interlopers before they get to attack you - once again you attacked the AI before you were ready to punish them - as a general rule (straight out of Sun Tzu) only attack when victory is certain. Could you post the odd save game - this would make commentary more accurate.

SG[1]

[Straybow]

On the swampy game, why did you quit? It is quite possible to build a winning game from that position. 720 AD is only 116 turns into the 400 turn game (Deity timeline; somewhat farther along on lower difficulties). Maybe a .sav would explain better.

On the third (fourth?) game you had only two cities, and then said, "2050 Settlers disbanded." Why disband Settlers? Either add the settlers to an existing city (using the "B" command while in the city tile) or found a new city. Again, retirement seems premature… the struggle to salvage a rotten turn of events is part of civ.

[Gravy Smoothie]

SG -- You're right, what I had learned from those two games was to put a bit more focus on defense towards the beginning.. The game i'm almost done with is going much better.

Straybow -- I'm looking at the log right now, and I can't figure out what "disbanded settlers" is, whether for some reason there was a food shortage, or I built them into a city, or what. Beats me.

Keep you all posted, thanks so much for all your help.

Gravy

[-Jrabbit]

DON'T BUILD CITY WALLS EARLY -- It's a real waste of shields unless you have a city actively exposed to a nasty opponent. All you really need to fend off barbs is a fortified 2 defender (phalanx) and a move = 2 unit (horse or chariot, preferably from hut). Diplomats are also great barb killers -- you literally buy the units you need to survive, and they don't require support.

[Gravy Smoothie]

Yay.

Here it is, folks:

4000 BC Start with Alphabet, Bronze, CB, CoL.
3950 Hut = horsies, hut = Pottery.
3900 Take 5 founded (wheat).
3850 Wise men get crankin on Monarchy.
3700 NO PILLAGE (oasis) founded.
3650 Hut = NONE nomads.
3550 Hut = Advanced Tribe, renamed to Advanced Tribe. (spice)
3450 Monarchy, monarchy. Yay for Oedo years.
3300 Hut = archers.
3150 Currency.
3050 Knock on Wood founded (buffalo, coal).
2750 Trade. Barbs destroy American civilization.
2450 Hut = barb horsie, kills mine.
2250 Discover writing, start Masonry.
1950 Barb chariot attacks Take 5, dies.
1750 Two barb horsies appear right next to my settler, must be a civ to the East.
1700 Horsies kill both warriors in Advanced Tribe.
1650 Settler miraculously holds against both horsemen.
1600 Knock on Wood somehow disappeared whil I wasn't paying attention; refounded.
1550 Masonry discovered, start Mysticism.
1450 Damn Barbs founded. Temple rushed in Advanced Tribe.
975 Mysticism, start Literacy.
925 Still Alive founded (fish).
700 With the help of three caravans, Advanced Tribe builds Colossus, switches production oders to Settlers. Take 5 builds Temple, switches to City Walls, we discover Literacy, start researching Republic.
450 Republic (!) start on Philosophy, begin revolution for growth spurt.
425 We are a Republic! Luxuries set to 60%. Someone builds HG.
400 Damn Barbs builds Temple, Take 5, Advanced Tribe celebrate.
275 Lux to 80%.
225 Wow., Boo-Yah founded.
200 We revolt, Puberty founded.
125 Back to Monarchy.
1 AD We are flourishing. Golden Age of Philosophy begins in Take 5, we learn Math and start Astronomy. Beginning to run some internal trade routes.
100 Looks like Aztecs are gonna beat me to Copern's, oh well.
160 5:11 PM founded (2x wheat).
240 Horseback Riding, start University.
320 Hut becomes AT #2 (wheat).
360 University, starty Theory of Gravity.
380 Hut = AT #3, exploration by AT #2 reveals that both a whale and fish just out of reach, going to disband city. Aztec diplo comes, we trade techs, we refuse to give University, they declare war, bribe Still Alive.
480 We liberate Still Alive, take Seafaring. Hut = legion.
520 We pay 50 gold, sign treaty with Aztecs. Barbs take 5:11 PM.
560 We discover Theory of Gravity, start on Construction, Sprawl founded.
720 We discover Construction, start The Wheel.
740 Greeks land, we gift two techs, peace.
760 Celtic catapult liberates 5:11 PM, AT #2 disbanded.
800 Bi-Special founded (whale, fish).
860 Advanced Tribe builds University, starts Isaac Newton.
940 The Wheel, start Engineering.
1020 Advanced Tribe builds Isaac Newton.
1040 Whoa, Germans build Mike's. We get Engineering, Start Invention.
1240 Invention.
1420 Banking, start Demo.
1550 Demo, revolution.
1570 Aztecs build SoL.
1580 Democracy, Lux 80%.
1590 about 8 cities celebrating.
1600 Pop from 1.72M to 2.02M.
1620 Pop = 2.33M.
1660 Back to Monarchy, several caravans on their way. Trade techs with Greeks (gain Bridge Building, Poly, Physics.)
1710 Land in Mongol territory, sign peace treat, get maps.
1720 Three trade routes established.
1730 Wow, tons of micromanaging.
1750 Economics, start Steam Engine.
1760 Germans build Darwin's, Aztecs build Adam Smith.
1764 5 caravans, diplomat arrive at the Mongol city of Aleppo, yielding about 300 beakers, an embassy, and a neutral standing. I trade for warrior code, feudalism, chivalry and gunpowder.
1766 Currently researching medicine. Talk to Aztecs, gift 150 gold, trade for Iron Working, Sanitation, and Magnetism.
1784 Mongols want Magnetism, no: war.
1794 Celtic diplo steals Industrialization , international incident with Greeks. Steal Metallurgy as well.
1804 We steal Conscription, Leadership, Railroad as Greeks get 'em.
1808 4 Caravans arrive in Nagasaki.
1810 Explosives, start Electricity. Talk to Aztecs, Trade Explosives for Corporation, gift 250 gold, alliance, maps, get 150 gold back from them.
1824 Gift Chem to Mongols, end war, trade Explosives for Commie, begin revolution. Commie to Aztecs for Tactics, they end alliance. Two caravans arrive in Kyoto, establish embassy with Japanese.
1828 Communism. Greeks end war, we trade Tactics for Steel.
1836 Finally make contact with Germans, gift Chemistry, trade something for Mono, establish embassy.
1838 Two caravans arrive in Aztec city of Tlacopan. Embassy established.
1842 Trade Greeks for Atomic Theory, Refining.
1851 Finagle Theology from Germans, start JS.
1853 Guerilla Warfare, start Espionage. Trade Theology for Combustion to Aztecs.
1854 Steel to Aztecs for Flight. Combustion to Greeks for Amph Warfare.
1863 Knock on Wood discovers Cure for Cancer.
1864 Transport with 8 freights off to Beijing.
1865 Espionage, trade for Machine Tools, start Radio.
1870 Score Automobile, Refrigeration from Aztecs.
1877 12 caravans arrive in various cities, score about 1200 gold/beakers. Machine Tool for Mass Production to Aztecs. Revolution
1879 Democracy.
1880 14/14 cities celebrating.
1881 Population from 3.93M to 4.90M.
1882 Tacitus declares us the most advanced civilization , population from 4.90M to 5.90M. Score Mobile Warfare from Greeks.
1883 Population from 5.90M to 7.01M.
1884 Population from 7.01M to 7.79M.
1885 Population from 7.79M to 8.37M.
1886 Population from 8.37M to 8.86M.
1887 Population to 8.90M, luxuries reduced to 20%. Trade for Fundy, Labor Union, Nuclear Fission.
1891 Been building food caravans in a lot of places for a few turns (gettin ready for the advent of Space Flight.)
1893 We gift Advanced Flight to Germans. 8 Caravans arrive in German city of Cologne (500 beakers/gold) then we trade for Computers.
1894 9 Freights built, we score Miniaturization and Nuclear Power from Greeks.
1895 Advanced Tribe builds SETI Program ...Japanese develop Monarchy!
1896 Bored Engineers go on a railroading frenzy.
1901 The Laser, start Space Flight.
1902 We have 23 Freights, 10 in production.
1904 Aztecs develop Space Flight, start Apollo...hm.
1908 Germans develop Space Flight, we score it.
1909 Advanced Tribe builds Apollo program, Aztecs discover Plastics, we discover Plastics. This one's gonna be down to the wire.
1910 Aztecs build 1 Structural. We build 11 components. Taxes jacked to 80/0/20 (we'll steal Superconductor from the Aztecs.)
1912 Aztecs discover Superconductor. We give them 550 gold, enter an alliance, they give us Superconductor.
1914 Our spaceship thus far: 4/14/0/0/0.
1918 Our ship: 14/16/1/0/0. Aztecs: 9/4/1/0/0.
1921 We have 17/16/1/1/1, Aztecs can launch soon if they want, but I will catch them if they do.
1924 No Fusion Power, but our ship is 33/16/1/1/1. Aztecs Launch 15/6/1/1/1, ETA 1944. We launch, ETA at Alpha Centauri 1931
1928 We build Superhighways out of boredom. Engineers occupy their time building railroads and cleaning up pollution.
1929 Greek spies steal Plastics, Space Flight. Good for you, guys.
1930 I Win founded, non-occupied Engineers build into it.
1931 I win. I ended tied for 5th on the civilization Powergraph, with a score of 527 and a rating of 68%.

There are still a lot of things to work on with my gameplay. This includes much increased expansion (there was plenty of available land), better building and use of caravans, building more settlers, especially when I engineer WLT* days, etc. More feedback is welcome, and my final save is posted here.

Gravy Smoothie

[-Jrabbit]

Congrats, Gravy! I know and remember that feeling well!

Haven't downloaded and looked, but the thing that stood out to me was that you weren't ready for the representative governments when you switched to them. Republic is very limiting in terms of military, esp. the number out in the field. Demo is also restrictive, but is easier to control.

You need to prepare for the govt changes so that you really take advantage of them instead of falling into internal revolt. Typically, I use Republic to get most of my cities to Size 8, and once I get into Democracy (if I'm going to AC), I try to stay there.

That alone should get your score into 700-plus, around 100% area.

Oh, and learn to love Adam Smith's Trading Company, the WoW that pays for itself!!

WAY TO GO, GRAVY SMOOTHIE!!!!!!!!

[Scouse Gits]

Glad you made it Gravy Smoothie

I have had a look at your 1930 save and it is a remarkable win because you did things the hard way The only happiness wonders you built were Shake's and CfC. At Deity the Hanging Gardens is a key wonder. Unlike the Colossus it offers some benefit to every city in your empire, and is essential for early expansion.

It is difficult to sustain Republic or Demo without Mike's and/or Bach's. The purpose of these forms of government is to grow your cities to their maximum quickly.

One quote in your log caught my attention
1928 We build Superhighways out of boredom.
You should build them as soon as you can after discovering Automobile. They vastly increase your trade, enhance your freight bonuses and give better permanent routes.

Good luck with the next win!

-----------------------------

SG(2)

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Good work!

You'll find it gets easier, too. Some fine tuning is required, of course

I second SG(2)'s thought regarding wonders. You'll make your life a lot easier with HG and Michelangelo. There's a thread in the Strategy forum on favorite wonders, and HG is at the top of almost everyone's list. It lets you build a lot more small cities early in the game without unhappiness, and helps you celebrate more easily. It's not crucial... but it is a huge help.

And if you're bored... build CARAVANS