Couple of Questions

[Cato]

1) Anyone know of a good Roman Scenario not requiring FW, starting around 300-250 BC and lasting 200+ turns?

2) Any good reason I should buy MGE or ToT (other than to play multi-player)?

Thanks all.

[The Mad Monk]

TOT: Four maps, (about) 26 additional unit slots (as opposed to 11), additional tech slots, one additional building, two additional "worlds (different tech trees, units, terrains, etc.)", an additional scenario, all now at half price in the U.S.

There's more, just ask me!

[Andz83]

Do you know any good possibility to purchase TOT via internet from the USA, to be transported to Europe and still less expensive than in Germany?

[Earthling7]

...and if I can live without four maps and "Horse Breeding???" is MultiPlayerGold better or worse?

Warehouse... Horse Breeding... hmmm

[The Mad Monk]

What, that old chestnut?

In case nobody else knows what Earthling7 is talking about, an online reveiwer (at Gamespot, I think) trashed TOT because he thought they just "renamed the techs"; I use that reveiw as an example of how reviewers just don't look at the games closely enough.

Let me start by saying, of the two new tech trees, the fantasy one adheres closest to original civ. Also, because there is no known way to edit the effects of buildings or wonders, you are bound to think of them as simply being renamed. In the fantsy game, this is largely true, since it appears that little was done to alter the shield cost, maintenance, or position in the tech tree.

Units are another matter entirely.

Take "Horse Breeding", for example: it holds the same position as Horseback Riding, and provides a "Horseman" unit; the similarities end there. The standard horseman is 2/1/2_1/1, and costs 20 shields; this bruiser is 5/3/2_1/2, and costs 40 shields! Furthermore, it is buildable only by the the Infidel tribe.

This is a recurring theme in the fantsy game; each tribe has its own, unique set of units. Buteos start off with flying unit--I'm not sure if they have any units that the game dosen't treat as helicopters, including the settler! They are also able to enter two maps (midgard and clouds) from the beginning. The stygian units are for the most part unbribable, and can enter three of the maps (midgard, underworld, and sea) from the beginning. Their horse unit dosen't come until later, but it has nearly the same stats as the infidel one, plus has def*2 vs. horse and can ignore ZOC.

Some techs cannot be acquired through reaserch at all, but must be won; "Ally with Dwarves", for example, allows you to build the fantasy engineer unit, but you will never get it unless you find a barbarian dwarf and bribe it. If you want to use dragon units (12/15/5_3/3, surface and clouds, attack air units, see two spaces, unbribable), you have to defeat one first (DIFFICULT), and that only gives you the preq tech that allows reasearch in that direction. BTW, dragons are barbarian units, and start to appear pretty early--and you thought barb dragoons were bad...

And then there are the Sorcerers. These are 6/4/6(6), see two, can attack air, have access to all four maps, and cost 50 shields; Everyone has them, from the begining (that's right, turn one you build a city, turn two you can start to build a sorcerer).

I could add more, but tobyr is the fantasy expert here.

The science fiction game (Lalande) takes all this a couple steps further. Here, they scramble the tech tree, units, and even buildings (as much as you can).

For example, two of the first techs you can reasearch are Adaptive Farming and Craftsmanship; Adaptive Farming gives you the algae farm, which is the SF equivalent to a harbor; they cost 80 shields (please consider building costs as estimates), slightly more than the harbor. Craftsmanship allows you to build the Capital, and Sir Arthur's Stone; SAS is better known as JSB's Cathedral! It costs only 100 shields, and lasts about as long as you would expect the Oracle would (more on this later). The two techs are the preqs for Primitive Machinery, which gives you--brace yourself--workshops, the FACTORY equivalent; only this factory costs 40 shields, with a maintenance of 2. This alone can cause radical shifts in strategy, since you can produce a lot of units a lot earlier, but you can end up with pollution long before you're ready to deal with it; plus, that 2 gold maintenance can be real burden in the early game.

Other buildings and wonders will also cause a completely different game; you have to get 7 techs before you get the Granery equivelent, and when you do it costs 140 shields! The Magellan's eq. comes at the same time, but dosen't last very long. The Pyramids eq. comes much later, and lasts a short time, and the Great Wall eq. even later, but never expires (most units fly by this time, so its effect is reduced).

Then there are the civs. They are divided into two types, (four) human and (three)alien (the background is that the two species crash-land on the planet at about the same time), and the two cannot communicate until somebody researches Xenolingustics, about mid-game. Unitil then, meetings tend to be violent, and you might be tempted to wipe the other species off planet, except for one thing: each species has techs only it can research, and the tree is set up so you cannot get to the higher levels without techs from both sides. This means not only that you can't wipe them out, you have to keep them healthy enough to do effective reaserch; you can bet they won't show you the same courtesy. Each side has their own units, like the fantasy game, and shared units; there are also units nobody can build, but show up as barbs and in huts.

A case in point is the Ophion. This unit is described as a giant sandworm, 3/2/2_2/2, cross impassable, ignore ZOC, INVISIBLE UNTIL ATTACK. These are usually found as barbs, but they can also be the FIRST thing you pull out of a hut. Another is the Bombus, desribed as a large flying insect, 4/1/6_1/1, spots subs, def*2 vs. air, attacks air, sees two (I should add at this point that you can switch damage to helicopter-types off, and this was done in both Fantasy and SF). You can build this at the same point you the the granery eq., but they also appear as barbs and can also be the first thing you get from a hut. This alone will force you to think defesibly early on, since you never know when one the buggers will attack a city...

Terrain is different, too. There are no forests. Instead, there are 'burning trees', a native tree-equivalent that provides 1 food and 2 trade--that's right, not shields, trade (actually called data). You can irrigate them and get the grassland eq., or mine them and get salt flats (2 shields, 2 data, minable and roadable). The new graphics also provide a refreshing change from original civ (goes for fantsy and AC in extended, too).

In the fantasy game, you can access all maps from the beginning; this is not the case with the SF game. You have to earn your way to each successive map, each requiring its own units and strategies.

I could go on, but I should leave some surprises. Besides, I want to post this before my computer crashes again. In short, TOT provides two worlds that are different enough to make you feel like you're playing new game, and provides excellent examples for scenario designers to shoot for.

edit: spell check, grammer, added dropped words, etc. Bleh. Probably not the last for this post...

[This message has been edited by The Mad Monk (edited April 11, 2000).]

[Steve Clark]

I really wish people would start creating historical scenarios with ToT. I am very much turned off by anything fanstasy/scifi, thus the reason I have or will not buy SMAC, ToT, CTP, etc.

[Cato]

I too prefer the historical scenarios and games, so I will probably hold off on ToT until more such scenarios take advantage of the flexibility therein.

In the meantime, isn't there a good Rome scenario not using FW? The Microprose one leaves a lot to be desired from a historical perspective. The udate of that one is basically the same set-up with better graphics. Anyone? Please?

[The Mad Monk]

It's really sort of a catch-22, isn't it? You won't buy TOT until there is a substantial number of historical scenarios, and scenario designers understandably don't want create scenarios for a limited audience; thus, a wonderful expansion with plenty of room for new units and a very flexible scripting system goes to waste. Pity.

[Cato]

Good point, MM. Are you a lawyer in RL? (kidding). Thank you also for the detailed description of ToT. I will probably get it in due course, but for now I will go crazy with the new copy of FW I picked up at Software Etc. for 5 bucks (!) yesterday. Thanks again.