No ICS succession game

[Marko_Polo]

*bump*

[Scouse Gits]

Marko - I will forward/post a log later today!
The game I received was in very bad shape so it has taken some time to change things around!
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SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

The following comments are for information only. They are not intended to flame or embarrass anyone - but this game was a mess. I suspect it took a wrong turn some while ago and has never recovered as errors have been compounded into larger mistakes.

Perfectionism is not my usual style of play so I am probably not the best person to make these comments. Argue back if you believe I am incorrect!

Playing in a representative form of government the objective is to grow your population with "We love … " days. To celebrate in a serious fashion you must have the following conditions:

a) Surplus food
b) Market Places to enhance the luxury rate - not Courthouses
c) Aqueducts/Sewer Systems where appropriate
d) Trade routes.

It is very wasteful having luxuries set at 60% when only a few cities will benefit. The trick is to have as many cities celebrating at one time so the loss of science/taxes to luxuries is only a short number of turns.

Succession games by their very nature will suffer from a lack of overall direction because we all have different approaches to playing - such is the fun of joining them! However, that does not mean the basics of the game can be forgotten.

a) Half the world is black - it's 1790.
b) When first to Railroad - Darwin is always useful. So are railway tracks!
c) Wonders should be built with caravans after discovering trade.
d) Trade is essential under any government, not only for the routes but also for the bonus to science and gold. The money from initial trade allows further caravans to be rushed along, so more wealth/beakers can be created. It is a multiplier effect.
e) On a large world one transport is not enough.

Here ends the moan - now for the log.

1790 - Existing Courthouses sold, with Courthouse production changed to Markets.
1792 - Programme of Market Place and Caravan construction commences.
1794 - University built at Edinburgh. Beads to Flower 20g. Food caravans to Edinburgh make it size 16.
1796 - The Corporation - Chemistry next research with Explosives in mind. Maps and Magnetism from Babylonians. Cease-fire with Sioux. Peace with the Spanish.
1798 - Market Places built
1800 - More Markets built.
1802 - Dye to Wounded Knee 300g. Dye to Slim Buttes 60g. Gems to Edinburgh 84g.
1804 - As a precaution Paradise Island builds city walls as the Sioux have built Stony Lake next door. Additional transport built for ferry duties to Sioux/Spanish
1806 - Chemistry researched, now heading for Explosives. Silk/Gold/Oil to Wounded Knee 354g/150g/76g.
1808 - Edinburgh builds City Walls (we only have one Musketeer here at present); New Wales builds Aqueduct - more Markets built. Bribed a Spanish Crusader messing up Zones of Control (on a road on a mountain) for 286g. The Carts have just gained Conscription. They are hard to make peace with, so a little theft perhaps?

Explosives should be in next turn at the current science rate of 4. This will make a difference to railroading and other terrain improvements.

Game sent to johnmcd. Now retreats to nuclear bunker to await the backlash.

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SG(2)

[Marko_Polo]

Well SG, you anticipated a backlash and you got it!

First of all, me either haven't played much in strict perfectionist style. My style is more like 'perfectionist ICS'. I really love to have a lot of cities because that gives me more flexibility. If I suddenly need some units and all my perfectionist cities are producing improvements.. well, that sucks! It's just fun to have many cities but NOT so close to each other than in purist ICS style.

So, prior to playing this game, I read the "Simpson II's perfectionist strategy" manual and tried to follow it's guidelines. Then follows my defence to SG's moaning:

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits on 02-26-2001 07:50 AM Playing in a representative form of government the objective is to grow your population with "We love … " days. To celebrate in a serious fashion you must have the following conditions: a) Surplus food b) Market Places to enhance the luxury rate - not Courthouses c) Aqueducts/Sewer Systems where appropriate d) Trade routes.

I agree with 'a', 'c' and 'd' and with 'b' about MP's. However, in perfection game the courthouse is needed in order to an odd-population city to celebrate. Here is an explanation from the 'Simpson II'-guide:

quote: "Everything you never knew you wanted to know about WLTxD The cornerstone of this strategy is the use of celebrations to enhance growth. To recap the manual, a city will celebrate when it is at least size three, at least half of it's citizens are happy and it has no discontent citizens. If your government is a Republic or a Democracy, and there is a food surplus of at least one stalk, then the city will grow by one population point per turn. Simple, and I'm sure you knew that. But did you know there is a cap to the amount of luxuries a city can use? If it produces more than 2 times it's population level then any surplus is wasted. It takes precisely two luxuries to change an unhappy person to a content one, and another two to change the content citizen to a happy one. With one citizen 'naturally' content, it's easily worked out that you can always generate sufficient happy citizens for a celebration. However, if your first citizen is unhappy then things change. If your population level is an even number then you are still OK, though you loose a content citizen. On the other hand, if your population level is an odd number, then you can only generate one too few happy people for a celebration! This can happen thanks to the aforementioned unhappiness due to civ size, and it also happens if you have any specialists, including entertainers. A city which can't celebrate is almost completely useless for this strategy, so we will be trying to prevent that from happening, and curtailing our early expansion at these numbers. There are ways around these limits. The reliable one is to go to Democracy and build courthouses, which give an extra happy citizen - reliable but slow, we want to do our celebrating early or there is little point. The other is to build The Hanging Gardens. If you do build them then that is great, but it's not something that you can genuinely guarantee, especially against human opponents, so I'll leave the effect of the HG as an exercise for the reader. In general you will need a marketplace to increase luxury output if you want to celebrate in a Republic, though a harbor and putting everyone onto ocean squares can be equally good. Certainly you need roads or rivers if you are going to work the land. Add at least one happiness improvement, and you should be in a fine position to celebrate."

So because we don't have HG the only option for WLTxD's was the court.

quote: It is very wasteful having luxuries set at 60% when only a few cities will benefit. The trick is to have as many cities celebrating at one time so the loss of science/taxes to luxuries is only a short number of turns.

I again agree with this main principal. However, when I got the game I found out that the cities were quite small and gave a high priority to growing. That was my decision and is open to debate

Year 1790 was the 4. year with luxuries 60% and there was 3 effective 'WLTxD growing years' prior it when almost all the cities had grown thanks to those courts and trade routes. (My predecessors had established so many trade routes so that the cities were able to celebrate even without MP's.) I deliberately left the lux rate to 60% with celebrations going on so that the new leader would have had the option of continuing or stopping them up to his preference.

quote: a) Half the world is black - it's 1790. b) When first to Railroad - Darwin is always useful. So are railway tracks! c) Wonders should be built with caravans after discovering trade. d) Trade is essential under any government, not only for the routes but also for the bonus to science and gold. The money from initial trade allows further caravans to be rushed along, so more wealth/beakers can be created. It is a multiplier effect. e) On a large world one transport is not enough.

I agree with all the above. For the transport part I must add that me and my predecessor had very bad luck with our navy due to barb & AI attacks which sunk almost all our navy. And given the status of our nation defence I simply had to build defencive units to protect our cities. I think that we don't necessarily have enough of them yet.

In conclusion, I'm not trying to say that my contribution to the game was the best possible. There are many players around here that are much more skillful and experienced players than I am. I have only played under ten games at deity level. Still I want to learn more of this wonderful game by playing, making mistakes and learning from them.

Given that, I couldn't get away without trying to to justify why I played my 10 turns as I did.. especially when this was my very first succession game ever! Ok, enough of this, let's see what's happening next!
[This message has been edited by Marko_Polo (edited February 26, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

Marco - I was very careful to say at the beginning of my post that I was making points for information only. We have all been responsible for the game so it is a mutual mess! However, I would be lying if I said "Great game" - it's a gigantic mess!

A Courthouse is not the first thing to build if you wish to begin celebrations. It is more of a last resort than a first step. The Market Places help with gold as well as luxuries. The trade routes are very important to the sum total of trade any city enjoys!

The following is taken from "Simpson's Perfectionist Strategy" the work which guided you …

So start banging out those camels! Three per city for trade routes and some more for whichever wonders you wish to build. Send the trade ones to the nearest decent-sized AI City, there ought to be a size 5 or so nearby unless you are unlucky. This increases your trade in each city by 50%-80% - better than both a library and a bank, without the maintenance, and of course you get the sizeable bonuses to gold and science.

I can't say I have checked the figures … but the overall advice is sound. In 1790 there were four caravans active (3 food) and none in production. Over our 20 cities we had just 15 trade routes.

To continue celebrating with luxuries at 60% seemed wasteful. Of the 18 cities with 3+ population only half of them were happy enough to celebrate. So we come down to 9 - two were size 8 with no Aqueduct. Down to 7 - 3 of these would hit the maximum (8) next time around - all had no aqueducts. It was time for freights - to gain money to build improvements and speed science. These problems were not specifically your fault - but if you go for celebrations you MUST have the right infrastructure.

Please forgive my moaning - it is only by these discussions we all learn about the game.

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SG(2)

[johnmcd]

I think that while this game is a mess and we are undeniably behind where we should/ could be we should not tell each other how to play. It’s a succession game and as such when you are not the king your lips should be sealed. Everyone gets their ten turns and we win or lose by our collective wisdom. I expect everyone of us can whip the computer at Diety on our own, the challenge here is to see whether we can do it together.

[Marko_Polo]

quote: Originally posted by johnmcd on 02-27-2001 05:55 AM I think that while this game is a mess and we are undeniably behind where we should/ could be we should not tell each other how to play. It’s a succession game and as such when you are not the king your lips should be sealed. Everyone gets their ten turns and we win or lose by our collective wisdom. I expect everyone of us can whip the computer at Diety on our own, the challenge here is to see whether we can do it together.

I wholeheartedly agree with you John! Thanks for leading us back to the right way I apologise for my defensive arguments regarding my playing. I had planned to count this evening how many population points I managed to gain during my WLTxD's to justify my point , but now, who cares?? Maybe I'm a little bit touchy??

Let's continue this game with a warm spirit of fellowship and friendship! We really don't want the atmosphere of critisism and being afraid of doing something wrong, do we(?) After all, the idea of a succession game isn't to demonstrate how great player one is but to share a gaming experience, at least IMO. Does anyone agree with me?


[This message has been edited by Marko_Polo (edited February 27, 2001).]

[Scouse Gits]

Well said johnmcd - I get too impatient at times!
I can promise you all a Non ICS/No Moan Game from now. (Thinks ... how about a Big Moan Succession Game after we have finished this one?)

Marko - you are not too touchy - I would have done the same in those circumstances!

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SG(2) Lips sealed!

[Daddy-O]

I agree. I will only play a Big Moan Game, if all we do is offer negatives. None of this "let's be constructive" stuff. Kind of like American politics.


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"Bonjour, you cheese-eatin' surrender-monkeys."

[Scouse Gits]

Skrobism - sounds like you have been listening to Tony Blair - he was over your way recently.

I suggest the rules of the Big Moan Game are:

After each player posts a log, the other players are allowed one moan, like "Why on earth did you go Commie at a time like that?"

The last player is allowed one short reply (and only one) - then case closed! Original/honest/funny answers are encouraged.

Last week SG[1] and I were playing out the final moves of the Giga Succession Game started by kcbob. Wanting something to do whilst the spaceship was in flight we both had greedy eyes on the Carthaginians.
A plan was hatched to take out their capital, and bribe as many cities as possible. So an invasion force was sent to Carthage, and the city was captured. Then a spy knocks on the door of the next city down the road and asks "How much?" "3048 gold" was the reply! We looked at each other in total amazement! "Can't be that much without a capital?!" If we had bothered to check F3 we would have found that the capital was Caralis - and probably had been for several centuries.

A case of too much red wine - but not a whole case!

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SG(2)

[johnmcd]

Well, I've played and passed to Hueij. We are doing better though my turn was not without its upsets. A number of carvans were ambushed by Germans and Spanish, though thankfully no boats were sunk. Most navys seem to have taken a severe sinking from some Barbarian Galleons so our deffiency in that area seems to have been balanced somewhat. Other than that the only major development is a series of landings up our coast by the Spanish, most recently with riflemen....

We still don't have consctiption as all my spies keep getting nailed, though there is a vet on the mainland that looks like she has sea legs...

We discovered many things, first of all explosives which led to espionage which led to theocracy which led to chivalry (don't blame me for all of these choices, the options were limited to chivalry at one point at least...)

We are at least staying alive for the time being.

[johnmcd]

Hooray! I vote for the Gits to drink red wine! Except the little one.

I'd be up for a big moan one, so long as only negatives are pointed out and no advice on how to do it better is actually given.

[Hueij]

Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game ...

I got the game and will send it on next Sunday...

[Hueij]

Game sent to Skrobism...

The Hueij Years: 1826-1846

When Hueij was elected President of the Celts he knew it was going to be a difficult term. With a horrible reputation among the other nations there was no chance of getting new allies, keeping the Babylonians as allies would be hard enough. The war with Spain was a major concern, a navy was needed to heed off a Spanish invasion and eventually to conquer Spain. So it was decided to turn scientific research towards naval technologies and to grow the city of Edinburgh...

1826: exchanged Steam Engine for Metallurgy with the Babylonians and gave them Explosives.

1828: Lost a Transport with two Freights, we need a navy! Bribed a Spanish Cannon.

1830: Discovered Chivalry, Horseman updated to Knights. Going for Leadership. Our Spy discovered a Spanish city on our continent, Cadiz...

1832: A Spanish Spy steals the Corporation, in retalliation we bribe Cadiz for 175 gold, getting 39 gold and Conscription. The Spy didn't survive... All our Musketeers are Riflemen now. In other news: Edinburgh builds the UN... Peace with the Carthagians and the Sioux for Athomic Theory and the Corporation.

1836: Leadership, all Knights turned into Dragoons Discovered another Spanish city, Saragossa.

1838: Bank in Edinburgh, WLTPD!

1840: F*****g Senate gets a cease-fire with Spain, so I had to spend twice the money to bribe Saragossa. 800 gold and the loss of another Spy

1842: Electricity

1846: Peace with Germans and Chinese, 675 gold for a Coal Freight to Beijing. Discovered Steel.

[Hueij]

Game sent to Skrobism...

The Hueij Years: 1826-1846

When Hueij was elected President of the Celts he knew it was going to be a difficult term. With a horrible reputation among the other nations there was no chance of getting new allies, keeping the Babylonians as allies would be hard enough. The war with Spain was a major concern, a navy was needed to heed off a Spanish invasion and eventually to conquer Spain. So it was decided to turn scientific research towards naval technologies and to grow the city of Edinburgh...

1826: exchanged Steam Engine for Metallurgy with the Babylonians and gave them Explosives.

1828: Lost a Transport with two Freights, we need a navy! Bribed a Spanish Cannon.

1830: Discovered Chivalry, Horseman updated to Knights. Going for Leadership. Our Spy discovered a Spanish city on our continent, Cadiz...

1832: A Spanish Spy steals the Corporation, in retalliation we bribe Cadiz for 175 gold, getting 39 gold and Conscription. The Spy didn't survive... All our Musketeers are Riflemen now. In other news: Edinburgh builds the UN... Peace with the Carthagians and the Sioux for Athomic Theory and the Corporation.

1836: Leadership, all Knights turned into Dragoons Discovered another Spanish city, Saragossa.

1838: Bank in Edinburgh, WLTPD!

1840: F*****g Senate gets a cease-fire with Spain, so I had to spend twice the money to bribe Saragossa. 800 gold and the loss of another Spy

1842: Electricity

1846: Peace with Germans and Chinese, 675 gold for a Coal Freight to Beijing. Discovered Steel.