Great battles that changed history

[Chris 62]

This is another highly subjective topic, but lets hear your top seven(always seven, because that's the number of civs). Since I'm starting this I'll put mine first, in order of there being fought:

• Salamis 480 BC: Themistocles' trick ends Xerxes' dream of world conquest.
• Gaugamela 331 BC: Alexander's greatest victory gives him a world empire, and leaves Darius' and Persia's dreams of empire forever dead.
• Zama 202 BC: Scipio Africanus shatters the army of Hannibal, and teaches Rome the lesson of conquest.
• Ain Jalut 1260 AD: One that most people don't know about. Baybars and his Mamluks become the only power to defeat a mongol army, putting a stop to their westward expansion forever.
• Trafalgar 1805 AD: Nelson's victory over the Franc-spanish fleet of Villeneuve ends any hope of Napoleon ever defeating Britian, and thus of ever dominating the world.
• The Kaiser's battle 1918 AD: Imperial Germany comes withen a wisker of breaking the allies, and thus winning the first world war.
• Kursk 1943 AD: Hitler's last great offensive in Russia ends in disaster as Stalin knows when and were the Nazis will strike.

That's my list,let's here yours and don't forget to say why.

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited March 17, 2001).]</font>

[Prometeus]

Vittorio Veneto, 1918: Austro-hungarians were crushed, and Italians were able to seriously menace Bavarian lands... so that's another reason why Germany surrended to allies. And people don't know really much about this historical event.

A quote:
The "schwerpunkt" was keeped a secret by Diaz, the Italian Army's Chief. When he took on the map to show it to others officers, he didn't find it, so he asked in napolitan dialect to his officer, Lieautenant Nievo ( the famous writer ): "'Nne, Nievo, andù 'ssta 'sto ***** 'e Vittori' e' Veneto?"...

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by Prometeus on 01-24-2001 03:36 PM Vittorio Veneto, 1918: Austro-hungarians were crushed, and Italians were able to seriously menace Bavarian lands... so that's another reason why Germany surrended to allies. And people don't know really much about this historical event.

Becuase of Capporetto the previous year, this front was heavily shored up by both Britain and France. The Germans didn't care about it, and the Austrians couldn't do anything about it. The gains made by Italy were mostly striped at Versailles after the war, and were totally lost after the second world war. An aside: what does your scenario chung kuo represent? Sadly I can't speak Italian.

[Jay Bee]

May 7 Spain-o-centric picks:

(in chronological order)

1. Guadalete or La Janda (711). The battle that allowed the Moors to enter Iberia. Some historians doubt that this battle really took place.

2. Las Navas de Tolosa (1212). The Christian kingdoms of Spain unite to defeat the infidel. This battle opened the roads to the richest cities of Al-Andalus.

3. Aljubarrota (1385). The battle that secured Portuguese independence from Castile. Still today, the main reason for the existence of two separate states within the Iberian peninsula.

4. Lepanto (1571). The naval battle that ended Turkish threats on the Mediterranean sea.

5. Rocroi (1643). The battle that... snif... put an end to 150 years of Spanish supremacy on the battlefield.

6. Trafalgar (1805) or this is what happens when you let the French command...

7. Bailen (1808) First time a Napoleonic army was defeated in a pitched battle.
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited January 25, 2001).]

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee on 01-24-2001 05:08 PM May 7 Spain-o-centric picks:

I wanted to do that in spanish forum Jay Bee!

[Wiglaf]

Hey guys? I'd hate to be a jerk, but isn't this a bit off topic?

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by SMACed on 01-24-2001 05:51 PM Hey guys? I'd hate to be a jerk, but isn't this a bit off topic?

It is indeed

[popcornvendor]

i think the Battle of San Jacinto is very important. they texans beat the mexicans there, and were declared independent. this led to the Mexican War thing where the United States got all the western land. This helped america become a superpower, i think. (i failed history so dont hurt me too bad)

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by popcornvendor on 01-24-2001 08:38 PM i think the Battle of San Jacinto is very important. they texans beat the mexicans there, and were declared independent. this led to the Mexican War thing where the United States got all the western land. This helped america become a superpower, i think. (i failed history so dont hurt me too bad)

Your opinion is as valid as mine

[Prometeus]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-24-2001 04:00 PM...what does your scenario chung kuo represent?

It's a China scenario, about the lat part of Warring states period (403BC-221BC), i.e. the Yin Zheng kingdom. I'm working on a modified english version now.

[johnmcd]

I would say the Battle of the Somme is of immense importance in showing the horror of mechanised war, revolutionising social relations, fermenting political change and, through the Great War in total, bringing female equality closer.

[East Street Trader]

Jay Bee

Did you consider for inclusion La Armade Grande of 1588?

[Sieve Too]

All good ones so far. A few more biggies:

1) Battle of Saratoga. A sorely needed win for the American Rebels. Gave Franklin the edge he needed to convince France to help the American upstarts. England still grew to dominance in the 19th century but she may have become invincible if she was also able to control most of the vast American continent.

2) Battle of Britain. Permanently stalls Hitler's westward expansion. Forces him to fight a two-front war and allows America, Britain and Canada the time to build up a massive invasion army.

3) Agincourt. Lords and Knights vs mere peasants with longbows. The end of the unbeatable man in armor.

4) Monitor vs Merrimac. Suddenly, every naval vessel in the entire world became obsolete. Started great nations down the path that eventually led to huge battleships.

5) Battle of Midway. The end of the battleship era. A much larger Japanese fleet is defeated almost soley by air power.

6) Desert Storm. Air power as a demoralizing force. Green volunteers with high tech defeat 8+ year veteran elite forces.

[johnmcd]

quote: Originally posted by Sieve Too on 01-25-2001 09:26 AM 1) Battle of Saratoga. A sorely needed win for the American Rebels. Gave Franklin the edge he needed to convince France to help the American upstarts. England still grew to dominance in the 19th century but she may have become invincible if she was also able to control most of the vast American continent.

Sieve, why are you able to distinguish between ‘England’ and ‘Britain’ when it comes to WWII but not in the American War of Independence? I have no pride in the British Empire, but really.

[Gozer]

quote: Originally posted by johnmcd on 01-25-2001 09:33 AM Sieve, why are you able to distinguish between ‘England’ and ‘Britain’ when it comes to WWII but not in the American War of Independence? I have no pride in the British Empire, but really.

Never thought I'd see a Scotsman come defend the English!

In the US, we tend to equivocate "Britain", "England" and "The UK", although they are/were all separate entities. It's the same laziness that we use when we refer to citizens of the United States as "Americans" - not strictly true and in fact can be a source of insult to Mexicans, South Americans, etc.

In short, the individual terms have no loaded or political undercurrents here in the US and it is easy for us to forget to be precise.
[This message has been edited by Gozer (edited January 25, 2001).]