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  • The greatest civilization of all

    Discussing the merits of civilizations in another thread, it got me to thinking: what was the most important single one of all? I'll post mine first, with my main reasons. Let's here what the membership thinks. My choice is Greece, for the following reasons: Human freedom was born and given voice by a small land on the agean sea. It was these people who stood agaisnt the greatest tyrants(up to that time), the Persians. They gave law and a democratic sprit that still lights the world by it's glow. They embraced science and rational thought as no one ever did before. They spread their wings and their culture through out the world, to such a degree that it is still felt to this day. And to me these are the most important things of all.
    <font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 21, 2001).]</font>
    I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
    i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG

  • #2
    the romans, who gave us our language,our government (most governments are based upon the roman republic, not the greeks direct democracy and oligarchy) aqueducts, the arch, the road, civilized barbarian lands (gaul, britain, etc.), and, on the silly side, the only ever horse in government (he was a senator).
    "our words are backed by nuclear weapons"
    "oh, yeah. well, our nukes are backed by 100%money back guarantee, so there."

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    • #3
      Greeks could be it, though if the Phoenicians really introduced alphabet, etc. to the Greeks, then it'd be the Phoenicians, but since it's so uncertain, I guess I'll say Greeks, though one can't actually name the most 'important' civ. I'd rather speak about the most INFLUENTIAL civilizations.
      Greeks/Phoenicians/Romans, perhaps.
      Though all the Mesopotamian civilizations (Sumerians, Babylonians, Assyrians) also had a huge influence on all civilized world, for inventing mathematics, writing, astronomy, etc. So, if the Greeks/Phoenicians/Romans were socially most important, the Mesopotamian civs were scientifically the most ifluential.

      ------------------
      Eating people is fun.
      You make my life and times
      A book of bluesy Saturdays

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      • #4
        ...and I almost forgot the Chinese. They were the ones to invent gunpowder, the invention that changed the whole world. So, maybe they had the most influence. Who knows? ...and they did research a writing system, mathematics and astronomy of their own, though before the gunpowder they had no influence on western world.
        Hmm. I guess I'll have to change my opinion; Chinese were the most influential.
        You make my life and times
        A book of bluesy Saturdays

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        • #5
          quote:

          They embraced science and rational thought as no one ever did before.


          This brings up interesting questions. Do we really embrace science and rational thought as much as we say we do? I don't think so. When people run out of ideas, or when science conflicts with what they want or believe , they always seem to go back to "But ::insert Deity here:: said so!"...doesn't seem very rational to me.

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          • #6
            quote:

            Originally posted by Emperor10 on 01-21-2001 04:58 PM
            This brings up interesting questions. Do we really embrace science and rational thought as much as we say we do? I don't think so. When people run out of ideas, or when science conflicts with what they want or believe , they always seem to go back to "But ::insert Deity here:: said so!"...doesn't seem very rational to me.


            Unfortunatly that's all to true. For smokey: That horse is probably a better senator then the two from N.Y. I have now!
            [This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 21, 2001).]
            I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
            i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG

            Comment


            • #7
              The Romans, of course.

              ------------------
              Nam si violandum est ius, regnandi gratia violandum est: aliis rebus pietatem colas
              "Veni, vidi, vici."

              Translation: "I came, I saw, I conquered." Written by Caesar, in a report to Rome in 47 B.C. after conquering Farnakes at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days.

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              • #8
                So eloquent

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                • #9
                  I would have expanded more on my claim, but I'm supposed to be working I'll try to make my argument a little more persuading: There are two clues to an understanding of the Romans: they borrowed much from the Greeks and others, and they modified what they took. Rome was the great intermediary - the bridge over which passed the rich contributions of the ancient Near East and especially Greece, to form the basis of modern Western civilization. The Romans replaced the anarchy of the Hellenistic Age with law and order and embraced the intellectual and artistic legacy of the conquered Greeks. As Rome's empire expanded, this legacy was spread westward throughout most of Europe. The growth of Rome from a small city-state to the dominant power in the Mediterranean world in less than 400 years (509-133 B.C.) is a remarkable success story. Roman expansion was not deliberately planned; rather, it was the result of dealing with unsettled conditions, first in Italy and then abroad, which were thought to threaten Rome's security. Rome always claimed that its wars were defensive. By 270 B.C. the first phase of Roman expansion was over. Ringed by hostile peoples - Etruscans in the north, predatory hill tribes in central Italy, and Greeks in the south - Rome had subdued them all after long, agonizing effort and found itself master of all Italy south of the Po valley. (After Rome's fall in the fifth century A.D., Italy was not again unified until 1870.) In the process the Romans developed the administrative skills and traits of character - both fair-minded and ruthless - that would lead to the acquisition of an empire with possessions on three continents by 133 B.C. Instead of slaughtering or enslaving their defeated foes, the Romans treated them fairly, in time creating a strong loyalty to Rome throughout the peninsula. Roman citizenship was a prized possession that was not extended to all peoples on the peninsula until the first century B.C. Most defeated states were required to sign a treaty of alliance with Rome, which bound them to adhere to Rome's foreign policy and to supply troops for the Roman army. No tribute was required, and each allied state retained local self-government. Rome did, however, annex about one fifth of the conquered lands, on which nearly thirty colonies were established by 250 B.C.


                  ------------------
                  Nam si violandum est ius, regnandi gratia violandum est: aliis rebus pietatem colas
                  "Veni, vidi, vici."

                  Translation: "I came, I saw, I conquered." Written by Caesar, in a report to Rome in 47 B.C. after conquering Farnakes at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    For Caesar: A most eloquent answer, but I beg to differ. The chaos of the hellenistic world cannot be denied. For the greeks, this was brought about by their own desire for independance from other greeks. I think of Rome more as the lords of order, whose main contriubution was in warfare(Almost all roman weapons and armor were adapted from their defeated foes!), and their ability in organize and unify themselves. Slavery, bloodsports, tyranny, and injustice are also Rome's legacy. In economic matters, rome was a subsistance agricultural nation, who's own civil wars bankrupted their ability to expand. Much to be admired, but much to be loathed. And I am also at work as I write this!
                    [This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 24, 2001).]
                    I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
                    i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG

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                    • #11
                      cpoulos, you make some good points. the great ones are always loathed. if i had to pick my top five favorite Civ2 tribes, it would look like this:
                      Romans
                      Carthaginians
                      Greeks
                      Babylonians
                      English

                      cool, it's after 5pm...time to go home and start a new game


                      ------------------
                      Nam si violandum est ius, regnandi gratia violandum est: aliis rebus pietatem colas
                      "Veni, vidi, vici."

                      Translation: "I came, I saw, I conquered." Written by Caesar, in a report to Rome in 47 B.C. after conquering Farnakes at Zela in Asia Minor in just five days.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        quote:

                        Originally posted by Caesar the Glutton on 01-24-2001 05:08 PM
                        the great ones are always loathed



                        for rome for end of work!
                        I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
                        i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It only took two words

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                          • #14
                            Through a quick reading of ceasar's anthem I cannot help but notice that it's all about empires not civs. Some how I cannot understand what the colloseum contributed to civilization and why it's «wrong» to loath such practices because they are «great» or of «great people»? Ancient tragedies were played in greek theaters long before that!

                            Isn't the spirit that always preveils? Rome conquered an already inner divided greece and took away the DEMOCRACY of it - not the «anarchy» as it may seem to those who have not fully understood it.
                            Still the spirit preveils. Greece conquered rome in spirit by imposing its culture on the romans and that's why the roman empire was not just one more massive acquisition of lands but actually divided the world into «civilized» and «barbaric». And romes practises towards conquered people were nothing new.

                            Hmm, I think I am saying the same things as Ceasar. The only difference is that I think that civs are not only about the size of their (no) lands.

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                            • #15


                              The only difference is that I think that civs are not only about the size of their (no) lands.[/quote]
                              This was my point about the whole thing. Someone in the thread said we got our language from the romans. If you look at any dictionary, you will see far more words are derived from greek then latin. Western society(sorry,I know you don't like that term paiktis, but it best describes what I'm going for) is patterned far more closly on the Hellenes then the latins. Modern democracy is much closer to the greek one man one vote concept then the roman concept of plebians and equites. Where are the great thinkers of rome? Greece is repleat with them. Rome had plenty of orators and many fine soldiers, but the learning arts suffered under rome. To speak of free choice in the roman empire(not republic) is a mockery. Remember, this topic is not about empire size or longevity, but lasting impact on the human mind and spirt.
                              I believe Saddam because his position is backed up by logic and reason...David Floyd
                              i'm an ignorant greek...MarkG

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