Merits of inclusion of historical civs in civ

[Anodyne]

Well, phoenicians were the first to colonize the mediterranean world. After them came the greeks, so the greeks "won" (if you can speak of 'winning' in this case), though Phoenicians did it first.
And what I meant by forming the basis of Roman civilization was, that the Greeks actually formed the base for Romans, but Phoenicians formed the basis for greeks, so it roots back to the Phoenicians.
And about the question of whether Greeks or Phoenicians were civilized first, there are two opinions among the history-scientists, one says that Greeks civilized Phoenicia, one vice versa.
Now, they're two different people, that's for sure. Phoenician language is very close to hebrew, so completely different from Greek, so it's practically impossible that Phoenicians were, in fact, Greeks.
But the oldest documents about alphabet existing go to Phoenicia, about 3000BC, and some scientists believe that Phoenicians introduced the idea of alphabet to Greeks.
Anyway, I think it's useless to contest about who's "better", phoenicians or greeks, it's all just speculation My vote goes for the Phoenicians, though the Greeks don't stay far behind.

and about Persia; yes, you were right... I just remember something about the oldest empire without breaks existing somewhere around that area...
btw, what about Japan? I've never heard about anyone conquering Japan...

[Chris 62]

Oh ade, I forgot one other thing. The Phoneceans DID NOT invent writing. The Sumerians did in approx 4000 BC. They called it Cuneiform. The Phonceans were considered the greatest sea farers of the anciet world. They circumnavigated Africa from the Red Sea around to the mediterean sea, but no at the time believed them!
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 21, 2001).]

[Chris 62]

ade it not about who's better. Your facts about greek history are wrong. I could go on infinitum about this subject, but I'm telling you the Phoneceans did not influence greek culture. As for colonies, as I siad before, they were rivals. The greeks actually were far more sucessful at it. As for Japan, what I intended for the question was a basically stable(very loosely) government. Japan was not unified under one ruler until the warring states period(1550-1620). The japanese were one people, but not one political unit.
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 21, 2001).]

[Anodyne]

Hmm. From what I've read, it was the Phoenicians who invented writing, but the line is quite thin, and the oldest documents have surely been destroyed, so it is really impossible to know if it was the Sumerians or Phoenicians who invented it. My dictionary says it's the Phoenicians. But their writing system is very different from each other, so it is possible that they discovered it independantly (so, one didn't influence the other).
My dictionary also says that Phoenicians probably introduced the alphabet to the Greeks, but again, these things are extremely hard to be proven.
And about the colonization, Greeks colonized italy, areas around the black sea, southern france, northern egypt and turkey, while Phoenicians colonized northern africa, southern spain, sardinia and corsica...
And yes, I admit that many of my facts in Greek history might be wrong, I rely on my memory... just straighten anything false I've said.
Hmm. What was the original point, again?

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Eating people is fun.

[Smokey tha nuke man]

quote: Originally posted by Ade on 01-21-2001 03:37 PM Hmm. From what I've read, it was the Phoenicians who invented writing, but the line is quite thin, and the oldest documents have surely been destroyed, so it is really impossible to know if it was the Sumerians or Phoenicians who invented it. My dictionary says it's the Phoenicians. But their writing system is very different from each other, so it is possible that they discovered it independantly (so, one didn't influence the other). My dictionary also says that Phoenicians probably introduced the alphabet to the Greeks, but again, these things are extremely hard to be proven. And about the colonization, Greeks colonized italy, areas around the black sea, southern france, northern egypt and turkey, while Phoenicians colonized northern africa, southern spain, sardinia and corsica... And yes, I admit that many of my facts in Greek history might be wrong, I rely on my memory... just straighten anything false I've said. Hmm. What was the original point, again?

the sumarians developed their writing system (cuneiform) before the phoenicians. we just haven't been able to translate cuneiform.

[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-21-2001 02:30 PM Greek civilization's roots go back to it's three antecendent groups: The Thracians, the Illyrians, and the Mycenaens,all three of witch predate Phonicean culture.

Well this conversation is drifting more and more away from civ (the game ) but one more observation: don't forget gramiki beta and gramiki alpha of the Mycenaens which are the OLDEST recorded writings in history. Before Phoenicians (a great trading empire although a bit of a «phantom» due to lack of historical evidence) came around.

I can't remember in which museum the circular writing of gramiki beta and alpha are though...

[Bereta_Eder]

BTW mycenaens were one of the few matriarch - organised communities: Fertility statues, talking about fat UGLY women

But Athens was not even a village at the time so I guess I can excuse them...!

[Anodyne]

nope, fat BEAUTIFUL women by their standards since food was hard to get etc..., fatness was beautiness.
And about cuneiform - We haven't been able to translate it? I'm not sure what cuneiform language do you mean, but at least the cuneiform of Akkad-language(the language that was spoken in Babylonia&Assyria), we've been able to transcribe it, and from the libraries of Assurbanipal in Nineveh some great books written in Akkad cuneiform have been translated into several languages. Books like 'Gilgamesh', 'Atrahasis', some religional books etc...
Though the cuneiform Sumerians used was probably a whole different system from the Akkad language, but as far as I know we can read it (well, not us, but the scientists ).

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Eating people is fun.

[Bereta_Eder]

quote: Originally posted by Ade on 01-21-2001 04:42 PM fatness was beautiness.

Sure and they were promessing mothers too, very much wanted by the men!

Well at least I am glad I was born 5000 years later
Come here you thin, anemic babe

[Prometeus]

quote: Originally posted by cpoulos on 01-20-2001 06:26 AM I'd be happy to check out your site, but were is it?

On the top of the link, my fellow civplayer...

[Chris 62]

For ade one more time: Phoenicia existed from 1600BC to just before 1 AD, so could not have influenced greece. There were also greek colonies in spain.(Ask jay bee about it in the spanish forum). For an excellent book on the sumerians, try CRADLE OF CIVILIZATION by Profesor Samuel Noah Kramer. this work has been translated into many languages and you may be able to find it in your homeland For Paiktis: Cuneiform is understood and translatable. Remember it is no digression to discuss matters. That is how we all learn to broaden our views, and I will contiue to invite all to express them. One other thing: don't except facts from only one source. Read several books on the same subject to get a better understanding of truth
[This message has been edited by cpoulos (edited January 21, 2001).]

[Bereta_Eder]

I had to search in the dictionary for «digression»! It's - Apomakrynsi in greek. I'm not trying to get away from anything!! It's not painful! It's just fun to redicule things. Even our own civilization cpoulos

«Nothing is absolut. The measure of all things is each man on its own», Sophists

Please don't start quoting Plato now

[Chris 62]

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 on 01-21-2001 06:58 PM I had to search in the dictionary for «digression»! It's - Apomakrynsi in greek. I'm not trying to get away from anything!! It's not painful! It's just fun to redicule things. Even our own civilization cpoulos «Nothing is absolut. The measure of all things is each man on its own», Sophists Please don't start quoting Plato now

I won't if you won't!

[Bereta_Eder]

Deal!

[Anodyne]

Hmm. Now I came to think about the change of my sources being wrong, since they said that Phoenicia existed from 3000BC to about year 0... ok, I'll shut up for this matter, until I find more accurate information. For now, I guess I can admit cpoulos being right.

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Eating people is fun.