Constitution Committee: Discussion thread

[-Jrabbit]

(and now a word from outside the committee)

I hate the idea of a Supreme Court!!!!! : There's just no need!

--We just don't have the infrastructure (ie, enough ppl) to support this -- as witnessed by the struggles to get a full slate of candidates to run for High Council.
--This is the Democracy Game, not the Mimic The US Government Game. No Supreme Court!!

What is this, we turn Commie and immediately get into Big Brother Mode ??????????

[DarkCloud]

Oh well, the Constitution committe is as good a Supreme Court for our needs at the present. I support Jrabbit.

And- aren't we really overusing banana. It has sort of lost its jokish flavor- especially when it isn't funny such as in the OT "What fruit is your favorite" poll types?

[civman2000]

add the supreme court idea to the polls. Outline the basic idea and give the following choices:
1. Yes
2. No
3. Maybe, but it needs some refinement
4. If they are required by law to eat 5 bananas a day.

[MrWhereItsAt]

If the "Supreme Court" gets some more vocal support from those who post in this thread, I'll include it in polls. As it is Shaka and civman alone are pro the Court - and as I see it we kind of ARE the "Supreme Court", just not with the power to be the last resort in case of disagreements.

I think we should leave such decisions up to the voters - there's no need to make anyone a final authority (besides the Prez's limited authority) - I think all we need is a few of us to decide whether or not we NEED a firm decision on an issue. Let's not over-legislate ourselves here, I think the system of polling for a decision works well enough that we don't need anything else.

And civman - a Supreme Court sounds dangerously close to being an actual Constitutional authority (anti-AAAC), whereas this Committee is "Constitutional" in name only. We have no authority - all we are is a group who are experienced (or not) enough here to see what problems we are having/will have, and put up polls so everyone can decide what will be done.

I wasn't intending anything more drastic than that, and if anyone disagrees, we may need to go to the Council/voters to decide whether we get any power or not.

At the mo' I STILL intend only to put up the two polls I mentioned in my last post. If there's anyone worried enough about this, post here or PM me your concerns and I will include your suggestions or delay the poll(s).

Attentive to your concerns,

VP MrWIA.

[civman2000]

Now that you point that out, I have changed my mind. There should be no official constitution or standing committee but rough rules can be worked out by poll if there are major disagreements and it is a very important issue (such as term limits).

[Matticus]

The 'Supreme Court' doesn't have to go by that name. The basic tenant of it is the fact that they aren't elected and they stay away from any pickering that might go on. Weater the constution commitee acts as this arbitrary body or not doesn't matter.

[DarkCloud]

Shouldn't we post that first poll by now- i believe it has been 3 days. I'd start it, but I believe it is MrWhereItsAt's responsiblity.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Don't worry, DC. Have just got home. My Honours year project is due in 6 days so it's a busy time. Let me watch DBZ and then I'll post them.

Glad to see that there are those who want to keep me in my place!

The concern is appreciated.

[CannonFodder]

Wow, your still watching DBZ. I hope it's the subs...

[cavebear]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
Shouldn't we post that first poll by now- i believe it has been 3 days. I'd start it, but I believe it is MrWhereItsAt's responsiblity.

It *is* the job of the VP to post the election polls, but it is too early to do that. The elections should be timed to be completed a couple of days before the end of the current term, and I fully intend to conduct a game session Friday May 31.

So, the 3 day election poll should be posted on May 26th or 27th to close on the 29th or 30th. I know everyone gets anxious to get the elections started, but let's not have them too early. Sunday or Monday will work just fine.

[DarkCloud]

Glad to see that there are those who want to keep me in my place!

Well... If you didn't do your job, there would be no telling of the infringments on the constitution- it would become anarchy

[James Adams]

I think that only 4 terms one after the other should be allowed!

[Kuciwalker]

Here's my proposed constitution. It has it's own thread, but many said it should go here.

Democracy Game Constitution

"We the people of the United Apolytonia in order to form a more perfect Civ2 game, establish lots of polls, ensure domestic controversy, provide for the common amusement, promote the general post count, and secure the illusion of importance to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United Apolyton."



Article 1: The Presidency

Section 1: The President

The President is the Chief Executive. In any situation the President may ask to be incuded in the decision-making process, and is the sole authority in most final decisions. Except where specifically noted, the President has veto power, but is encouraged not to use it. The President is responsible for playing the actual game and holding turn chats while doing so.

Section 2: The Vice President

The Vice President is responsible for exercising the powers of the President when the President is for whatever reason incapable of doing so.


Article 2: The Cabinet

Section 1: Department Heads

The Secretary of War is responsible for presenting the President and citizens with a detailed report on the state of the military. The Secretary of War should be present at all discussions regarding the construction, deployment, or use of military units, the placement of cities and forts, or wonder construction.

The Foreign Minister is responsible for presenting the President and citizens with a detailed report on relations with other nations and our espionage capabilities regarding them. The Foreign Minister should be present at all discussions regarding the construction, deployment, or use of all Diplomats/Spies, or wonder construction.

The Secretary of the Interior is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on all internal and external trade routes, the location and status of all settlers, the production queue of each city, the status of each city (Is it in WLT*D, normal, or revolt?), tax allocation, gold/turn, available food caravans, wonder opportunities, and a list of the supply/demand in every city, including foreign cities. The Secretary of the Interior should be present at all discussions regarding internal or external trade, settler allocation, city production, city creation, or wonder construction.

The Science Advisor is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on all possible research paths, noting the military, wonder, and other benefits in choosing each path. The Science Advisor should be present at all discussions regarding research choices or wonder construction.

The Expansion Minister is responsible for providing the President and citizens with a detailed report on potential new city sites, our capability to get settlers there, and our exploration capacity. The Expansion Minister should be present at all discussions regarding exploration, city creation, or wonder construction.

Section 2: Deputy Deparment Heads

Deputy Department Heads are not required postitions. They are appointed by the Department Heads. There can be one deputy deparment head for each department. The Deputy Department Head carries out all of the functions of the Department Head when the Department Head is for any reason incapable of doing so.

Section 3: Sub-Department Heads

Sub-Department Heads are not required postitions. They are appointed by the Department Heads.

For the War Department:

The Sub-Secretary of the Army is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our ground forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Army until both Horseback Riding and Bronze Working are discovered.

The Sub-Secretary of the Navy is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our naval forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Navy until Map Making is discovered.

The Sub-Secretary of the Air Force is responsible for providing the Secretary of War with all information pertinent to our air forces. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of the Air Force until Flight is discovered.

For the Foreign Ministry:

The Sub-Minister of Diplomacy is responsible for providing the Foreign Minister with all information pertinent to our diplomats and the information we know about other nations through embassies. There may not be a Sub-Minister of Diplomats until Writing is discovered.

The Sub-Minister of Espionage is responsible for providing the Foreign Minister with all information pertinent to our spies. There may not be a Sub-Minister of Espionage until Espionage is discovered.

For the Department of the Interior:

The Sub-Secretary of Trade is responsible for providing the Secretary of the Interior with all information pertinent to foreign and domestic trade, including a list of all trade routes and a list of the supply and demand in all cities, foreign and domestic. There may not be a Sub-Secretary of Trade until Trade is discovered.


Article 3: States and Governors

Section 1: States

States are regional administrative areas which may contain no more than 5 cities. Each state has a governor who is the Chief Executive of that state. Each state can formulate local policy in relation to defense, trade, city improvement construction, and settler allocation.

Section 2: Governors

Governors are the Chief Exucutives of states. The governor is responsible for presenting the President and the citizens with a detailed report on all information pertinent to his or her state. The governor has the sole right to make decisions regarding martial law. The governor should be present at all discussions regarding city improvement construction, unit production, military unit deployment, settler allocation, and wonder construction in his or her state.

Article 4: Elections

Elections for President and Deparment Heads will be held every 30 days, and the polls will be open for two days. To be in the running for a post, you must be nominated and seconded. Nomination time will be in the three days preceeding the opening of the polls. The nomination time occurs during the term of the previous administration, but the game is not played while the polls are open. A person may be a candidate for only one office at a time. Elections are won by simple plurality. If there is a tie, those not tied will be out of the running and there will be another two-day voting period. This will continue until there is a winner. If the election comes to a two-person tie or goes on too long will be ended by rock-paper-scissors or something.

Article 5: Tasks that require special authorization

Section 1: Declaring War

To declare war on another country there must be a poll in which at least 20 people vote and at least 60% of the votes are for war.

Section 2: Negotiating Peace

To negotiate peace there must be a poll in which at least fifteen people vote and at least 60% of the votes are for attempting to negotiate peace. Decisions on specific deals during negotiations will be made during the turn chat.

Section 3: Wonder Construction

To begin construction of a wonder there must be a poll in which at least ten people vote and the wonder with a simple plurality will win. There must be a second poll regarding at which city the wonder should be constructed, but this poll is a normal poll.

Section 4: Nuclear Weapons

To use nuclear weapons, for the first time there must be a poll in which at least 25 people vote and at least 75% of the votes are for using nukes. Each subsequent use only requires 15 voters and at least 60% of the votes. If we are nuked first then the first authorization is bypassed and authorization is the same as subsequent nukes. If the decision must be made during the turn chat, authorization will be given by rules determined during the chat.

[cavebear]

Personal view: Way too complicated. Under-Secretaries of Army, Navy, etc? It will not work.

[Bear]

I disagree!

Those seem like brilliant ideas, but only if those people are appointed, rather than elected. Electing about 20 other people is just going to get too confusing, but if they are appointed to help the ministers (by the ministers), it would work quite well.. I say we implement that ASAP, considering we need more people to work on invasion plans for America and Egypt.

Deputies would have to be appointed as well.. although maybe the runner up in an election becomes the Deputy? That is a very good idea, as it gives people a chance to become involved in Apolyton politics without going through the process of becoming elected. That should be implemented as well.

One thing though.. a 60% majority for most things? Thats ridiculous, IMHO
If most of the voters vote "yes", then the motion is passed. That simple. If there are 20 votes, and 8 are for "yes", 7 are for "no" and 5 are for "don't know", the "yes" option wins. If there is a yes-no draw, another poll is taken without the "don't know" option.

Governors.. hmm. Seems a bit like localalised City Planning. I don't think that will work, personally.
Although.. it would be good for ceremonial titles. The Duke of Apolyton, or something. Would add some more role playing into the game..

One entire article you missed: Political Parties! What are the rules? Powers? Responsibilities? etc..