A New Start

[cavebear]

Monk - Please post the save file. I would very much like to look at the advantages it provides. Anything that gives us a way to legitimately compete in this game would be much appreciated and worthy of considerable discussion!

It sounds as though you have done very well, and we need that to get some game going again! Your insight into strategy is greatly appreciated.

[Bloody Monk]

Here is the save. Good luck.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

I see three have taken a look at the save. Hope you all will play on. Then after ten turns or so, we can all post a save and pick one to play the next round. This will make for a kind of demo-ish finish.

If you haven't started yet, please be sure to reset the sliders and build orders as I see that I left them in an "experimental" state. For instance, Science only needs to be at 10% for 'Poly to celebrate.

I will play again if I am able.

Monk (still spotless after all these years...)

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I see three have taken a look at the save. Hope you all will play on. Then after ten turns or so, we can all post a save and pick one to play the next round. This will make for a kind of demo-ish finish.

If you haven't started yet, please be sure to reset the sliders and build orders as I see that I left them in an "experimental" state. For instance, Science only needs to be at 10% for 'Poly to celebrate.

I will play again if I am able.

Monk (still spotless after all these years...)

I played on for 6 years - stopping at 1900 which seemed like a round number. I'll post the save and log below.

RJM at Sleeper's

[rjmatsleepers]

The People's Democracy of Apolyton: AD 1894

Cheat mode is on - I think this is because of the way the map was constructed. We are 6th in population, 5th in GDP and 5th in manufacturing.
At war with the Persians, cease fire with the zulus, peace with celts egyptians and sioux. We are weak and spotless.

Gold = 423
Net income = 66
Beakers = 33
shields = 80 (minus 3 for support)
5 alpine troops, 6 spies, 12 armour

The Persians give us rocketry for a cease-fire and 1200 gold for a peace treaty.
The Egyptians give us nuclear fission by way of tribute. The Sioux ignore us. I rearrange workers to increase shield output and switch all horse production to armour. I reduce science to 0%. I establish an embassy with the Sioux and the Egyptians. Celts and Zulus start apollo.

AD 1895

Sioux declare war; Egyptians give us railroad. We have risen to 4th in manufacturing. We capture Stony Lake without loss and get 128 gold plus industrialisation. Sioux give us chivalry and 450 for peace.

AD 1896

Egyptians give us machine tools. Our power has risen to inadequate.

AD 1897

Egyptians give us the wheel(!) and Persians declare war. Zimbabwe builds Appollo.

AD 1898

Egyptians give us physics. Persians give us combined arms and 400 for peace. We subvert Raging Brook for 106, picking up 16 gold and guerilla warfare. Up to 3rd in manufacturing.

AD 1899

Egyptians give us magnetism; Persians give us the automobile and the Sioux declare war. We capture Cedar creek for 91 and take leadership. Gold to Thebes for 134.

AD 1900

I'll stop here. We have gained 3 cities and 12 technologies, including combined arms, industrialisation, rocketry, railroad and nuclear fission. Our treasury is up by 2663; net income has grown to 104 from 66; Shields are now 125 (less 2 for support). We have 1 more armour and 2 more alpine troops. But the space race is on and I suspect we will need to plan to capture the Zulu capital.

RJM at Sleeper's

[cavebear]

RJM, how are you getting the AI to give up techs and gold and to attack when you want them to? I've always had a hard time with that (embarrassing to admit). I know the theory, but I can't seem to quite find the right triggers!

I think I am too kind and get-alongable except when actively at war (and then I am very lethal).

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by cavebear
RJM, how are you getting the AI to give up techs and gold and to attack when you want them to? I've always had a hard time with that (embarrassing to admit). I know the theory, but I can't seem to quite find the right triggers!

I think I am too kind and get-alongable except when actively at war (and then I am very lethal).

I'm no expert, but in this case it was fairly straight forward. I wanted a war with either the Sioux or the Egyptians (or both) so I asked them for tribute every turn. (I couldn't just attack, because we are keeping our reputation intact.) The Egyptians gave me something - usually a technology - regularly. The Sioux declared war rather than give tribute a couple of times. I would then capture a city and refuse the offered cease fire. They usualy then offered more money or another tech. Finally, by demanding tribute, I got rid of most of the guerillas. (I think you are more likely to get a declaration of war if you have subverted a city, but this may be coincidence. Also keeping a unit within their city limits seems to help, even if you do withdraw it whenever asked.)

The Persians were more accidental. They didn't show on initial map, so there was no point in being at war. After contact I refused the initial cease fire so they upped the ante. After that it was a case of demand tribute and then let them pay for peace. They were so far away that there was never any actual fighting involved.

The main problem with my turn set is that I have done nothing about dealing with the Zulus - apart from increasing the war chest. Presumably we need three transports packed with armour and hope that we can sneak across the water without getting sunk. A bit of a long shot.

RJM at Sleeper's

[Bloody Monk]

RJM,

Your save looks good, but, will you take it out to 1904, please??

I banged away over the weekend (and slept all of yesterday from the effort) and completed ten turns to 1904. If you do the same we will have a better comparison.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

cavebear,

As RJ says, it is a matter of persistent tribute demands. Sometimes they take the bait, sometimes they ignore you. At times, I have asked for troop removal and gotten war where a tribute demand had been ignored priviously. "And I don't why!!", as Robin Leech would say. Probably a random factor.

On the matter of tech offers as inducement for ceasefire and peace, there is no reason to accept a tech you do not want. They will then offer more cash instead, which is much preferred. I especially would not accept Guerrilla War as it will increase the number of partisans that pop up when both parties have that tech. Also, accepting Chivalry loses our cheapest garrison unit. Until we get a Fundy gov't, having Horse is a good thing. Invention, which oddly enough we do not have this late in the game, also should not be accepted as not having it means we can still get tech from huts (though that is a risk, obviously). We have an interesting situation here with all the leapfroged techs. Back filling the skipped techs is unnecessary at this point.

In the 1894 save we are at war with the Persians, which is odd without contact. Ordinarily, if you have no units on the landmass of an AI, they will just ignore you all the time. The reason is a Persian-Kelt alliance which was triggered when the Kelts declared war on us in the "incident" at the end of that turnset where we got Espionage.

In the case of the Kelts and the Zulu who are Hostile, getting them to declare war should be no problem. Even contact is often enough if you refuse joining in one of their wars.

Finally, are you going to play the game?? It would be nice to have more choices in our "best ball" endeavor.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
RJM,

Your save looks good, but, will you take it out to 1904, please??

Monk

I'm not sure how much time I'll have, but I'll see what I can do. Before playing any further, I'd appreciate any thoughts on our main problem which (IMHO) is preventing the Zulus (or possibly the Celts) landing on AC before we can conquer the world.

We could try nukeing Zimbabwe, but they may well have an SDI. Can we send a spy with a nuclear bomb? Does that hit our reputation if we are at war? Failing that, the only thing I can see is a fleet of transports with a large number of tanks. Will we be able to avoid contact (and hence war) with the Zulus while we ship our army across the water? How many tanks do we need? How about a para drop? Is there any mileage in that? We can just reach the Zulu main land from Apolytonia, but not Zimbabwe itself. I suspect that we can't afford to bribe any of the surrounding cities. If we can capture any Zulu city will they offer a cease-fire - in my experience the AI often does. If so, is it worth trying to capture the Zulu city just beyond the Egyptians?

Incidentally, our capital is looking very vulnerable, stuck out there in the middle of the ocean. Should we move it to a more protected position? Does it matter if it gets captured? (At the moment we have enough money to move it if it falls.)

RJM at Sleeper's

[Kataphraktoi]

nukes\spies dont hurt your rep while at war IIRC.and the AI does not use naval attacks right,i wouldnt worry about the capitol.i have never seen the ai use amphib attacks


i would give this a spin,but i messed up my civ and get get it working

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


I'm not sure how much time I'll have, but I'll see what I can do. Before playing any further, I'd appreciate any thoughts on our main problem which (IMHO) is preventing the Zulus (or possibly the Celts) landing on AC before we can conquer the world.

We could try nukeing Zimbabwe, but they may well have an SDI. Can we send a spy with a nuclear bomb? Does that hit our reputation if we are at war? Failing that, the only thing I can see is a fleet of transports with a large number of tanks. Will we be able to avoid contact (and hence war) with the Zulus while we ship our army across the water? How many tanks do we need? How about a para drop? Is there any mileage in that? We can just reach the Zulu main land from Apolytonia, but not Zimbabwe itself. I suspect that we can't afford to bribe any of the surrounding cities. If we can capture any Zulu city will they offer a cease-fire - in my experience the AI often does. If so, is it worth trying to capture the Zulu city just beyond the Egyptians?

Incidentally, our capital is looking very vulnerable, stuck out there in the middle of the ocean. Should we move it to a more protected position? Does it matter if it gets captured? (At the moment we have enough money to move it if it falls.)

RJM at Sleeper's

The Zulu have already launched--eta 1918. The priority now is to capture the Zulu capital Zimbabwe. From my suggestions earlier, I believe a bomb toting spy, followed by a Tank, are what we need. If the spy escapes unharmed, we will not be blamed for using the Bomb, btw. A single transport is more likely to approach the Zulu coast unmolested. A fleet of them would be nice but would the Zulu allow that?? Zimbabwe has some very nice WOW too!!; but how long can we hold it?? That would be a bonus. The goal for now is to stop the spaceship.

Other considerations:
--If we get the Zulu to declare war, our reputation will not take a hit. As soon as we take one city, they will ask for a c/f and peace which we have to take if we want any chance of holding Zimabwe (which would be very good for us to hold). However, if they launch and take back Zimbabwe, our troops in the city will be lost, so having many boatloads of Tanks may not be the best thing anyway...this time.

--Apolytonia is very vulnerable, I agree. I have stolen The Laser from the Kelts and built SDI there for some protection; and I think moving the Palace is our next move, Cedar Creek being my choice.

--Surely, the Zulu and Kelt main cities have SDI, so NucMissles will not do. It will have to be Mata Hari with a bomb in the dinning room.

--I would not want to use NucMissles first, but if we are attacked, we should have one of our own to, if nothing else, lift the 12 ship investment of Malaca and to show some teeth. Also, just having a bomb of our own will have some degree of deterent effect, or so I think.

--Capturing El-Amarna will not stop the s-ship; only taking the capital will do that job.

--My thought for how to win involves taking, or researching, the Mil-tech and arming ourselves for conquest, and blasting away any capital city after a s-ship launch, while we systematically take over the world. We are now Moderate in Power rating.

--I made several glaring mistakes that hopefully you can avoid. One is to get embassies now that we have spies. I forgot that it is a free move for a spy. Also, I conscentrated too long on the Suefolk, forgetting the Egytians. Taking an Egyptian city will yield more $-plunder, now that most of Sue-land is ours.

--Play to 1904 if you have the time, and that goes for other folk as well. I will work up a log and summary as soon as I can.

Monk

[rjmatsleepers]

I hope to find some time to play today, so I'll probably be able to post a 1904 save this time tomorrow.

Are we certain about the spy with a bomb in her knickers? Cataphract887 says its OK if we are at war - I don't see a problem provoking one. But Monk says we avoid the hit if she escapes. Does that mean we take a reputation hit if she is captured? Were you talking about during a cease fire rather than when we are at war?

Also Monk does not want to be the first one to use a nuclear weapon. Is this a general feeling? Do we introduce it as a game rule?

RJM at Sleeper's

[Bloody Monk]

RJM,

I was not disagreeing with Cataphract887. After they declare war anything goes and no hit to us. Rather, I was referring to what happens with a spy-bomb. If she escapes unscathed, THEN, the cause is a "mystery" and we are not blamed. This is the case even if we are at peace and she escapes; but that is too risky. If we don't get a war declaration first and she is captured, then we take a hit to reputation AND become bomb bait. That I want to avoid for as long as possible.

I, therefore, want to delay first use of nuc-Missles, which, unlike spy bombs, are impossible to hide. Until we get a better production base, as in more captured AI cities, I think we are better off not having an all out war with the two principal foes involving Missles. They are way too expensive for us...at the moment. I would be against this non first use as a general rule. I mentioned it as a momentary tactical consideration only.

I look forward to your additional 4 years and encourage others to play to 1904 as well. I will push meself to write up a log today.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

1904 Log and Summary

The Persians had declared war as part of their Kelt alliance the previous turn. There being no point in being at war with an AI whose territory is unknown, priority will be given to getting Peace with them so we can conscentrate on rolling up the Suefolk.

1894...
Contact Persia Rocketry for c/f and 1200g for Peace very nice
Contact Egyptians for Tribute--NucFission and again at the end of the turn getting Railroad (might have stolen that but don't remember)
Kelts and Zulu start Apollo

1895...
Egypt Tribute -> MachTools
Sue Tribute -> War!!...Take Stoney Lake + 129g & Industrialism, then refuse Chivalry, accept 600g for c/f, then pass on Guerrilla War and get 300g for Peace

I refused Chivalry because I did not want to lose the 20shield Horse slot, both for rushing and garrison troops. I passed on G-War because our having it will increase the number of likely Partisans that will pop up when we take a city. There is no need to take an unwanted tech, especially when they will probably then offer gold instead.

1897...
Sue declare War!! Take Raging Brook +4g + Sanitation . Bribe Cedar Creek for 752g, getting 30g + Steel .
Zulu complete Apollo; the world is revealed!!

1900...
Sewer in Apoly. Discover Theology -> Physics.

1901...
Deliver Gold Freight from Apoly to Rhonda for 972g!!
Tribute from Persia--Combined Arms
Huts: Fundamentalism and AmphWar

Learned something new and unexpected. Even this late in the game where everyone else has Invention, since we do not have it, techs are still available from Huts This adds Invention to the list of techs to refuse from the AI.

1902...
Steal The Laser from the Kelts and complete SDI in Apoly.
REVOLT!!
Zulu launch s-ship, eta 1918.

1903...
Fundy Gov't established.
Sue--War...Take Lil BigHorn +43g + Electric 1 and 200c/f
Persia--Steal Physics
Persia--War...Take Hamadan +15g + Computers + 300c/f
Kelts--War...Take Llanalli +15g + NucPower and c/f.
Egypt--Steal Refining

1904...
Choose Robotics for research.
Finally remember that our Spies can make Embassies freely w/o loss. Get embassy with Kelts and Egypt.

Summary Points

--17 techs added (from 38 to 55)
--6 cities added (from 17 to 23)
--9 new Tanks
--3 new Horseys
--1 Alpine, 3 Rifles, 3 Partisans
--3 Spies
--Convert 2 Caravels to 4 Transports
--Convert 2 Settlers to 4 new Engineers

A one Transport load of 4 Tanks and 4 Spies is awaiting embarcation for Operation Zulu Strike .

Monk